Why should I learn to beatmatch?

[Atomisk]

Title says it all. Asking on behalf of a friend.

[Paulie65m]

The Ear is more accurate then a computer, cdj etc....

[Alex Murphy]

:facepalm:

DjF 1.0 rehash: many will autosync, few will be DJs


I swear, when we get automated cars, people will ask why they should learn to drive.

[Nicadraus]

Because it is essential. Anybody who wants to DJ should and must learn how to do it by ear and not by visuals or by just pressing the autosync button.

Those who are too lazy to learn should oblige themselves by learning the proper way to beat match.

[DJ Weatherman]

BEACUSE THAT WHAT A DJ DOES. if you dont want to learn how to beatmatch then stop calling yourself a dj or stay in the bedroom. please.

[Andrew B]

Because he won't always be in a situation where he can use autosync or whatever other crutch he relies on.

[Alex Murphy]

Because he won't always be in a situation where he can rely on autosync.

All you need is one gig where the guy gets placed behind a conventional setup because "he's a DJ" and makes himself look like a clueless fool. No autosync, no mixedinkey, no gridding, no preset tracklists, where's me lifejacket?

[Nicadraus]

All you need is one gig where the guy gets placed behind a conventional setup because "he's a DJ" and makes himself look like a clueless fool. No autosync, no mixedinkey, no gridding, no preset tracklists, where's me lifejacket?

I would like to see this happen to so many people who claim that they are great DJs. :D

[Andrew B]

I would like to see this happen to so many people who claim that they are great DJs. :D

I saw two guys that were used to Traktor and a controller try to spin with SSL and 1200s. It wasn't pretty, even with the damn waveforms. :lol:

[Alex Murphy]

I would like to see this happen to so many people who claim that they are great DJs. :D

Quick translation: sorry guys I can't play this tonight as my CD is scratched like fuck and I don't have a backup.

Of course you will notice: 40 seconds of dead air before recue and play :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zx0YYRb5VI


*cuts the wrong fader - Wooooooo that was so smooth man


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20zFNZDWPrk

fancy a pauly douche video?

[Liam]

It's quite funny you say this, i know someone that has been bragging for months about how good he is.. Put him on two CDJ's and a mixer the other day and watched the trainwrecking begin..

It's a fundamental if you want to be taken serious and prove you are a good DJ.

[Nicadraus]

It's a fundamental if you want to be taken serious and prove you are a good DJ.

Agreed! :tup:

[Ignotus]

:facepalm:

DjF 1.0 rehash: many will autosync, few will be DJs


I swear, when we get automated cars, people will ask why they should learn to drive.

thats bloody brelient .... i will use this analogy from now on

[Kingbob182]

I tried mixing on vinyl for the first time about 3 months ago. I'd been mixing on CDJs for about 2.5 years before that. Wasnt THAT hard. I mean I still have a lot of respect for guys who mix on vinyl, Im not saying that beatmatching on vinyl is easy. Im just saying the transition from cdj mixing to vinyl is really not that hard if you understand how a record plays and have a basic ability to judge the approx bpm just by ear (Which you should, be able to if you've been mixing for a while anyway).
I love beatmatching on vinyl now. Ive still only had maybe 4 hours practice in total but I want to buy some TTs now. I love the feel on control when youre physically touching the tables and slowing it down.
If youre not learning to beatmatch, you're missing out on half the fun IMO.

I just need to get used to finding the beginning of a track after I find the right tempo

[Rothgery]

Atomisk you have been around the forums for quite some time, since 1.0 with all the thousands and thousands of autosynch/beatmatch debate and dead horses beat why would you make a thread like this, unless your just trying to stir the pot....


Consistent gigs... Every thursday, friday saturday. I'm the resident DJ for the #1 Ranked frat at PSU (Delta Chi) and the Rugby team. I'm working on nailing down a residency at a new nightclub that's opening up. Also made leaps and bounds in regards to production.

If you get all these consistent gigs, you should be able to answer your friend pretty easily without making a thread thats bound to be brought up a million times in the future. Save some server space.

[Lionman]

The way I see it is like this... why would someone bother to learn handwriting if they can type? Why learn how to walk if you can drive? I don't need to be able to read, I can listen to talking books. Why learn to cook if you can just get takeaway?

Ultimately, I'm with Liam on this one "It's a fundamental if you want to be taken serious and prove you are a good DJ."

[Ignotus]

Atomisk you have been around the forums for quite some time, since 1.0 with all the thousands and thousands of autosynch/beatmatch debate and dead horses beat why would you make a thread like this, unless your just trying to stir the pot....



If you get all these consistent gigs, you should be able to answer your friend pretty easily without making a thread thats bound to be brought up a million times in the future. Save some server space.

honestly everything you quoted about him just sounded like a reason to brag... not gunna lie...

[Hygro]

Title says it all. Asking on behalf of a friend.

The drugs aren't mine, I swear!

[moyo wilde]

best answer which is one somebody else gave is that if you are put in front of another kind of setup you need to be able to do a passable job. if you can't beat match it ain't going to happen.

i did a party with another dj. i mixed for about two hours then he did his thing with one of the controllers and serato itch. about 40 minutes into his set the host runs over to me. he wants me to get back on the decks. i ask why cause i want to take a break and chill with some friends for a bit. the reason was because the other dj couldn't use a cd player. he didn't even want him to mix he just wanted him to play his cd so that he could perform, basically just pressing play on the cdj, cause he only had one disc.

also some clubs aren't too happy with you fiddling with their set up. another problem is that if you have to maove a lot of stuff to setup you may have to stay till the party/club closes to get your equipment.

best to be familiar with almost all standard setups.

[Phil Noize]

When the software screws up, real DJing skills are needed.

[Hausgeist]

Atomisk you have been around the forums for quite some time, since 1.0 with all the thousands and thousands of autosynch/beatmatch debate and dead horses beat why would you make a thread like this, unless your just trying to stir the pot....



If you get all these consistent gigs, you should be able to answer your friend pretty easily without making a thread thats bound to be brought up a million times in the future. Save some server space.

All those posts from 1.0 are gone. Maybe, just maybe, Atom has been telling his buddy this stuff, and he wants to show this cat that he is not just making this shit up. Know what I mean?

Then again, it is Atom, so who can tell? :P

http://i41.tinypic.com/r1ddso.gif

[Hygro]

Also, you look super lame if you're on a big technofest setup, geared towards CDJs and stuff, so that you can interacted more directly with the crowd, only to like, have a stupid screen in your way. And to hook that up. When last played the sound guy had to hook and unhook up a traktor rig to the DJM800. When he unhooked them he replaced channels 1 and 4 with CDJ 2000s.

THERE WERE FOUR CDJ-2000s. WHY WOULD YOU EVER NEED TO PLAY ON ANYTHING ELSE?

[Ferryman]

That's like asking if it's ok to bypass talking and go straight to the singing.

[Ignotus]

All those posts from 1.0 are gone. Maybe, just maybe, Atom has been telling his buddy this stuff, and he wants to show this cat that he is not just making this shit up. Know what I mean?

Then again, it is Atom, so who can tell? :P

http://i41.tinypic.com/r1ddso.gif

i think i know what your REALLY saying :p

[de.j.l]

THERE WERE FOUR CDJ-2000s. WHY WOULD YOU EVER NEED TO PLAY ON ANYTHING ELSE?

that made my morning, as long as those CDJS are all linked together that' is a damn prime setup man.

[moyo wilde]

i would also add that showing up with only bangers can be stupid as well. you never know when things are gonna turn another way and you might need to open or close or play to just a few people. one of the worst feelings i had was only having bangers and not enough people.

[Ignotus]

i would also add that showing up with only bangers can be stupid as well. you never know when things are gonna turn another way and you might need to open or close or play to just a few people. one of the worst feelings i had was only having bangers and not enough people.

you should see the folders i bring to each show... BUT on that case, if your a multi thousand dollar paid headliner, i REALLY wouldn't worry about this thing

[mostapha]

The Ear is more accurate then a computer, cdj etc....

That's actually completely wrong. Ableton and Traktor can both be more accurate than a human ever could. That line clearly comes from someone who has never done it (or never done it right).

So, why should you learn it? Because it teaches you to listen to tracks differently. It gives you the opportunity to learn all the skills necessary to play a good DJ set that most people never talk about. And it gives you something to do for those first few weeks/months while you're figuring out how to stop trainwrecking so you don't immediately jump into hot cues, loops, IG effects, and all the other crap that all the controllerists swear is the future and only ends up sounding like noise.

Manual beatmatching is not necessary for a DJ performance to still be DJing in my eyes, but learning to do it is–IMHO–essential to learn how to not suck because of all the ancillary lessons it facilitates and that things like Traktor hide.

[Kingbob182]

That's actually completely wrong. Ableton and Traktor can both be more accurate than a human ever could. That line clearly comes from someone who has never done it (or never done it right).

I agree that its not as accurate. But I think the ear (once you know what youre doing) is more reliable. My CDJs (even with the latest firmware) often show a track to have the same BPM as the last track I loaded. Even when I know its wrong. and you'd wanna be sure you have your beats 'gridded' right.


IMHO, the less software between me and the speakers, the safer I feel.

[Ferryman]

that made my morning, as long as those CDJS are all linked together that' is a damn prime setup man.

Indeed. Sounds like a badass set up!

[Xzentric]

I thought you got banned on the old forum for threads like these

[Sigma]

Why?

1. Cos you can mix on anything with pitch controls, rather than being limited to only equipment that has auto-sync. You may not always be able to take your own gear with you to a gig.

2. Cos you can mix with other DJs if you want to in situations where the setup can't be used to auto-sync your tracks with the other DJ's.

3. Cos while you are learning to beatmatch manually, you get to know your music well. You also get comfortable with using your equipment.

4. Cos it's more rewarding. It takes more skill than just pressing a button, therefore you get more out of it too.

I think every DJ should learn it. Even if they go back to using auto-sync once they have, at least that skill is always there should they ever need it.

[Era 7]

play with sync all you want but learn how to beatmatch first. it is just a basic skill you should have as a DJ.

also i personally think it is quite fun at times :) holding a mix together manually is really just a good feeling.

[CharlieSpriggs]

err uhh well...Let me think

I think, I think it's important. Not totally sure though. Maybe it's not. Ah to hell with it just push the sync button...

*Walks away feeling like a pro!

[KLH]

How else are you going to learn how to synchronize your windshield wipers with your turn signals? That sh*t's cray...

-KLH

[mostapha]

I agree that its not as accurate. But I think the ear (once you know what youre doing) is more reliable. My CDJs (even with the latest firmware) often show a track to have the same BPM as the last track I loaded. Even when I know its wrong. and you'd wanna be sure you have your beats 'gridded' right.

Ultimately, that's why I sold an X1-based TP2 setup and my Ableton rig for an SSL setup. I didn't want to have to deal with beat grids. But from already knowing how to mix on turntables and CDJs and using Ableton then Traktor Pro exclusively for about a year each, the software is more accurate. In Ableton, you could set warp markers down to sample-accurate timing. In Traktor 2, you could get pretty close. At that point, you're more accurate than word clock-induced jitter. No one's ears are that precise.


IMHO, the less software between me and the speakers, the safer I feel.

That's a separate issue and while I don't share the sentiment, I completely understand.


How else are you going to learn how to synchronize your windshield wipers with your turn signals? That sh*t's cray...

-KLH

Yes, that sh*t cray.

[DJMC]

Many many years ago, I couldn't understand the concept....

Once I got a regular bar/club gig, I eventually caught on. Adapt or die! This was before computers.

Now i can say after 22 years of spinning CD's-- that I have a certain comfort level with my Denon DND-9000 dual CD deck, and my Rane MP-44--- having used this board for almost a decade now.

Even wedding receptions benefit from beat matching! I get lots more compliments about my service than before when I did not mix......

[djkvg]

i think auto sync can be helpful... i mean if you're trying to mashup tracks with different BPMs on the fly and trying to transition them quickly then auto sync does help... i guess it opens up to more creative mixing

There is a pro and con to everything... using auto sync doesn't mean u don't know how to beatmatch but it just strays away from being tedious.

i don't use auto sync but i can see the advantages in it.

[Sigma]

Even wedding receptions benefit from beat matching! I get lots more compliments about my service than before when I did not mix......
I think many people just settle for what they can get away with man.

We all know that the music is the most important thing and we also know that there are plenty of bars/clubs/events where you could just fade from track to track and it's not like the crowd would start booing and shouting "get off!!!", but I don't see that as an excuse for not pushing yourself technically too.

From best to worst: -

1. Great tech skills and great tunes
2. Not that great tech skills, but great tunes
3. Great tech skills, but crappy tunes
4. Crap skills and crap tunes

A lot of people seem cool with being in group 2, when they could be in group 1 with practice. This is one of those conversations that we've had many times on the old site, but I don't get why some people still have trouble grasping it. If a person is cool with being in group 2, fine, but when you come to a site full of DJs and you're talking about it almost like you're proud of it, expect to get a verbal slap in the face cos it shows that you lack passion.

[moyo wilde]

... If a person is cool with being in group 2, fine, but when you come to a site full of DJs and you're talking about it almost like you're proud of it, expect to get a verbal slap in the face cos it shows that you lack passion.

for some reason i read this part in a KRS 1 voice.

[dskreet]

Because that's what Dj's do.

[RDRCK]

Tell him or her that there are several things that you pick up while learning how to beat match, other than the skill of beat matching by itself. Mention learning about dance music arrangement, phrase matching, rhythm matching, correct eqing, etc. It's true, all these things could be learned independently, but they all come naturally if one is learning how to beat match manually.

[mostapha]

i guess [sync] opens up to more creative mixing

BS.

There is nothing that I've heard anyone do with autosync, the bridge, maschine with a midi clock, or anything like that which wasn't possible in the 80s. If you're willing to accept that you could be using a groove box as your 3rd deck and were good/fast enough at sampling, I haven't even heard anything with hot cues that couldn't have been done by the time the MPC60 came out.

It's one of the lines often touted by people who don't know any better and are justifying their laziness.

I'm with Sigma's last post. I don't care if you use sync. I did for a couple years and eventually gave it up because I'm way less interested in setting beat grids or warp markers than I am in spinning. If you're going to use it, be honest with everyone else and–more importantly–yourself about why you're doing it. And from someone who's done it both ways, I'm telling you that it ain't because of creativity. It's because in the moment it's easier.


If a person is cool with being in group 2, fine, but when you come to a site full of DJs and you're talking about it almost like you're proud of it, expect to get a verbal slap in the face cos it shows that you lack passion.

Or that their passion is in a different place and one that many of us find insulting, annoying, or just plain lousy.

[c-hawk]

Because it's fun!

[g-sep]

Shit will hit the fan.

[Atomisk]

Atomisk you have been around the forums for quite some time, since 1.0 with all the thousands and thousands of autosynch/beatmatch debate and dead horses beat why would you make a thread like this, unless your just trying to stir the pot....

If you get all these consistent gigs, you should be able to answer your friend pretty easily without making a thread thats bound to be brought up a million times in the future. Save some server space.


All those posts from 1.0 are gone. Maybe, just maybe, Atom has been telling his buddy this stuff, and he wants to show this cat that he is not just making this shit up. Know what I mean?
This. My friend just so happens to be one of the most stubborn people on the planet. We were up until 6 AM (we're roommates) debating the sync button. I've explained to him that sync can fuck up, it's quicker, teaches you fundamentals, saves your ass when you can't use your controller, etc. But he tries to justify it with these BS arguments. I made this thread in an effort to show him what I mean. (He just made an account as Decebal, hopefully he'll reply soon).

I've been trying to get him to learn to play on CDs. I've been telling him all these things, I just needed some people to back me up. Hopefully he realizes the error in his way when he reads this thread.

[Buszaj]

Because it's fun!

I fully agree with this. Beatmatching by ear brings you into a whole new level of DJ'ing (it should be the fundamental level). I feel so much more in touch with the music, almost intimate. Not only are you focused on making a good sounding mix with your EQ's and faders and whatnot, but you're also listening carefully for drift, nudging that platter or moving that pitch as needed. I've never had any gear that allows you to autosync, but it just seems so boring. You already know your tracks are going to stay matched, so that element of DJ'ing is taken out. Many people will say, "oh, but that now gives me room for creativity"...I've yet to see ANYONE on autosync use this opportunity to their advantage.

I suppose I've taken that towards the whole autosync debate. But beatmatching should be a fundamental of DJ'ing, as mentioned. I feel that it's time for a change in definition of what DJ'ing is.

[peterwo2e]

here we go again real dj's vs fake dj's. you guys kill the already dead horse. there is no point here.

[RDRCK]

No implications of realness or fakeness here bud :) I think, though, that most people who have been doing this since before the advent of autosync agree that it behooves a DJ to learn how to mix by ear. It certainly isn't required, but then neither is eating your veggies :shrug:

[Hygro]

When I use traktor for my mobil gigs, I never use sync. The reason is because it's more goddamn work!



Here's why you should learn to beatmatch
Z4dkuYro4t8

[l0ckd0wn]

tmBS;dr

Medium doesn't matter; output does.

Beat matching is a skill and a partial talent deriving from rhythm, and the more tuned your skills are the more versatile you are.

Atom, I'm totally negging you for not putting this in the Beginners section when you know darn well that this is where the conversation belongs.

Also requesting a move to the Beginners section.

[Hausgeist]

:toilet:

[Signal Lost]

But then again.

Ain't a DJ who's able to seamlessly mix without beatmatching more creative than one who does?

I know beatmatching is quite an essential skill, but, finding other seamless ways to mix takes lots of creativity.

[BuddyUK]

True not every style of music can be beatmtched and you should have other tools in your box of tricks but it's still an essential skill.

[Boomcie]

backspin airhorn:slayer:

[Rothgery]

tmBS;dr


Also requesting a move to the Beginners section.

good point

[Paulie65m]

I agree that its not as accurate. But I think the ear (once you know what youre doing) is more reliable. My CDJs (even with the latest firmware) often show a track to have the same BPM as the last track I loaded. Even when I know its wrong. and you'd wanna be sure you have your beats 'gridded' right.


IMHO, the less software between me and the speakers, the safer I feel.

:stupid:

Not to sure how software is accurate, Im only vinyl. But to not know, even the basic of just mixing, beat matching .....a person is bound to trainwreck if just auto sync two tracks with same bpm and walk away , you always have to adjust something especially for djs that are beat matching two tracks and letting both of them ride out for like 10 min

[silentsounds]

This whole beat-matching argument is sort of like a vicious cycle. I've observed it a handful of times among people I do know.

Kid gets into a DJing and buys a controller of some sort with one of the many software solutions out there. His/Her friend who beat matches raves on about how you are not a true DJ if you do not beat match by ear. Kid claims he uses sync to be more creative, blah, blah. One day the kid gets beat matching down and goes on to patronize others he knows for not beat matching by ear. I'm not saying everyone does it, but I've noticed this a lot.

It is an important skill for DJs. But here's my take on it.

1) Laptops, etc. crashing are not life and death situations.
2) If you are getting a gig where you may come across CDs or TTs, then it makes sense to learn it. However, a lot of DJs I know tend to use their own gear or carry their own laptop to use with house equipment.
3) I agree with the above regarding 'creative' mixes. With that said though, look at it this way: Those kids would probably suck a lot more if they were on CDs/TTs.
4) Software, Sync, Beat grids, etc. allow your mixes to be just a little more perfect. Is it wrong to want that? These solutions reduce the number of mistakes one can make for the most part. Ultimately, the output is what matters.

People need to stop using others as a means of justifying what they do. Who cares what the pros are using. Use what you are comfortable with and allows you to do your best work.

You eventually get beat matching down with practice, but even once you have it down you can train wreck. Log onto FW and you'll notice drifting beats from a number of people. (Please don't take this as an insult. I've had my fair share of train wrecks on there)

Gear of any kind can break down. I've had issues with CD decks on FW before for example.

[mavericckk..]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:

[Anomoly]

There is no correct answer to a dumb-*** question

Why should you learn to walk?
Why should you learn to read?
Why should you learn to add?

[Nicadraus]

Not to boast. But believe it or not, but I could hold 4 different tracks with 3 turntables, a CDJ and a 4 channel mixer from start to end of the longest track and doing some other effects using only my ears, hands and mind. I poured many, many hours/days/weeks/months/years to practice before (and up to now) because I believe in developing skills rather than relying on computers. I don't argue and I know that computer softwares are precise and that's what they were/are made for. Of course who would make unreliable softwares with inaccuracies? Common sense right? The thing is, you can never compare any computer program to the intelligence and skill of the human mind. Remember that the equipment is only good as the user. If a person have great gear but shitty skills, then his gear's potential is very limited...

I personally use TSP mainly because:

-for convenience of not lugging heavy record bags/cases
-thousand of tracks
-more effects options

but never for the auto sync, beat sync, tempo sync or any other sync.

[Nicadraus]

But then again.

Ain't a DJ who's able to seamlessly mix without beatmatching more creative than one who does?

I know beatmatching is quite an essential skill, but, finding other seamless ways to mix takes lots of creativity.

BS! Obviously, words coming from someone who justifies that auto sync is better than manual beat matching. :P

How long does it take you to match 2 tracks? If you do (beat match by ear) it right, 15 secs tops is all you need to match them.

[Hausgeist]

It is good to see that the more things change, the more they stay the same. 2.0 is picking up right where we left off. :zany:

[Atomisk]

Haus, can you lock this thread? This is getting stupid. I just needed to show my friend I'm not the only one who thinks sync is bad. I should've known any topic concerning sync falls into a shitshow like this.

[Hausgeist]

Haus, can you lock this thread?

I did. Stripe re-opened it. :lol:

[Atomisk]

I did. Stripe re-opened it. :lol:
:facepalm:

[silentsounds]

Sync isn't bad though.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

[ChrisHynds]

The gym equivalent to auto syncing!!!!!!!

Edit - fail on the picture link :facepalm:


http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=chair+on+treadmill&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1280&bih=628&tbm=isch&tbnid=sxHfUMYcQCDrfM:&imgrefurl=http://www.gymfails.com/2010/10/running-on-a-treadmill-is-hard-being-a-fat-failure-is-harder/fatchair/&docid=pm7HCEpZNPMezM&imgurl=http://www.gymfails.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/FatChair.jpeg&w=500&h=406&ei=a8czT42gGMPPmAWBiaCGAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=333&vpy=144&dur=1239&hovh=202&hovw=249&tx=171&ty=120&sig=109458650033944529195&page=1&tbnh=132&tbnw=172&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

[ChrisHynds]

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=chair+on+treadmill&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1280&bih=628&tbm=isch&tbnid=sxHfUMYcQCDrfM:&imgrefurl=http://www.gymfails.com/2010/10/running-on-a-treadmill-is-hard-being-a-fat-failure-is-harder/fatchair/&docid=pm7HCEpZNPMezM&imgurl=http://www.gymfails.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/FatChair.jpeg&w=500&h=406&ei=a8czT42gGMPPmAWBiaCGAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=333&vpy=144&dur=1239&hovh=202&hovw=249&tx=171&ty=120&sig=109458650033944529195&page=1&tbnh=132&tbnw=172&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0

[nolimitz]

*nws statement* because buying a flesh light doesn't mean you're getting laid. It gives u a false sense of the real thing. Think of it as a girl using photoshop to make herself look better. Shes using software to trick ppl. And that "keeping up with new technology" argument doesn't win here. Cuz when it comes down to it, if that same girl were to enter a beauty contest (equivalent to a gig for us), she doesn't have the attributes that she falsely presented. Get what i mean?

[Sigma]

But then again.

Ain't a DJ who's able to seamlessly mix without beatmatching more creative than one who does?

I know beatmatching is quite an essential skill, but, finding other seamless ways to mix takes lots of creativity.
This is a flawed argument though really, even though I can see where you're coming from.

You mention "finding other seamless ways to mix", but your argument only works if someone learns to beatmatch but only ever uses that to do the same old mixing style, rather than seeking out those other "seamless ways to mix". A good DJ would have various tricks up their sleeve for mixing records, but that would include beatmatching.

I can beatmatch 2 tracks together and do a smooth 16 bar (or whatever) blend. If I did that with every transition I ever do, it would sound OK but it would be pretty boring. I have learned different methods of doing transitions solely for that reason - I like to have variety in my mixes and I like listening to mixes by other people that have variety in them too (in terms of technique).

[DoDirty409]

I love the passion you guys have for your craft!!! Im a bedroom DJ for now using a controller, and for some reason I dont like that sync button too much. Its not always correct. Its easier for me to manually match most of the time using bass drops. Am I beatmatching even though Im using a controller?

[Andrew B]

Am I beatmatching even though Im using a controller?

If you're manually beatmatching, then you're manually beatmatching. Doesn't matter what equipment it's on.

[djdavidvaux]

Do not depend on software. Ear will always override. Learn to beat match. And also beat match in key. Even more important.

[Sigma]

I love the passion you guys have for your craft!!! Im a bedroom DJ for now using a controller, and for some reason I dont like that sync button too much. Its not always correct. Its easier for me to manually match most of the time using bass drops. Am I beatmatching even though Im using a controller?
It's all about attitude to me man.

Using your controller at home in your room you can learn the fundamentals of DJing as well as some other guy who's at home with a set of 1200s rocking only vinyl. The difference is, you can cut corners if you choose to and he can't, but if you don't choose to, you're no different to him in your attitude and in the results you will get.

[thehadgi]

Hey at least we're getting it out of the way with this thread, right

[de.j.l]

yea, beat match or get beat up!

[Connor]

Learning how to beatmatch is also what helped me understand phrasing and is essentially what taught me how to DJ...

[Sean]

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zlx4oy.jpg

[DjDisArm]

When I use traktor for my mobil gigs, I never use sync. The reason is because it's more goddamn work!



Here's why you should learn to beatmatch
Z4dkuYro4t8


:lol::lol::lol:

[mostapha]

http://i40.tinypic.com/1zlx4oy.jpg

This is a BS argument.

Seriously, I've had CDJs fail more often than laptops. Just don't buy bargain basement junk and you're fine.

[silentsounds]

This is a BS argument.

Seriously, I've had CDJs fail more often than laptops. Just don't buy bargain basement junk and you're fine.

This is what I was trying to point out in my previous post. I'm not saying don't learn beat matching at all, but some of the arguments here are bad.

[mostapha]

The sad thing is that I'm really starting to think that the old school, pro vinyl, anti sync guys make up less relevant, more ignorant arguments.

That doesn't make them wrong, though.

[Alex Murphy]

Beatmatching is too much of a skill for some...

[Adzm00]

I wouldn't agree that CDJs fail more than Laptops, not if we are talking about high end CDJs.

Fact of the matter is there are more factors able to make your computer no respond properly. The more simple something is the more reliable it is (general rule of thumb) and so when you add software, and controllers, and sound cards and expansion cards and cables and the million things that can go wrong with computers anyway, then it turns out they are more likely to fail.

That is not to say CDJs don't fail, or you don't ever put fucked discs in a CDJ. Shit happens guys.

[djshire]

Because using the sync button all the damn time means that you're just an expensive jukebox.

[mostapha]

I wouldn't agree that CDJs fail more than Laptops, not if we are talking about high end CDJs.

Each model of Pioneer CDJ that I've had any real experience with (200, 1000, 900) have failed more than all of the computers I've taken into a DJ booth combined.

The only difference is that it takes longer for the computer to get back up. They're both fixed the same way…if they were overheating, move the heat source and let them breathe. If not, power cycle. But even my computer takes 15 seconds to boot. CDJs take like 6.

[silentsounds]

Because using the sync button all the damn time means that you're just an expensive jukebox.

All that matters is the output. You think people on the floor care whether you are syncing or beat matching by ear?

[mostapha]

All that matters is the output. You think people on the floor care whether you are syncing or beat matching by ear?

I disagree with both of those.

If all that mattered was the output, why are we not all just playing mix tapes that we made in Ableton? And don't give me that "you have to follow the crowd" bullshit. I mean…it's true. But if you're playing–for example–just electro bangers from start to finish, your crowd adjusts. And apparently there are a lot of people that like being ignored.

And I've watched people care. Virtual laymen. People who are impressed by a DJ handling records and not having a computer in sight. It might just be fetishization of vinyl. But it's as valid as anything else said in the vast majority of these arguments.

[Atomisk]

And I've watched people care. Virtual laymen. People who are impressed by a DJ handling records and not having a computer in sight. It might just be fetishization of vinyl. But it's as valid as anything else said in the vast majority of these arguments.
Stage presence is a huge factor. It's hard to stay into it while you're just playing off an ipod.

[pittsey]

O wow djf is down for eons and when it is restored I come to see this

[silentsounds]

I disagree with both of those.

If all that mattered was the output, why are we not all just playing mix tapes that we made in Ableton? And don't give me that "you have to follow the crowd" bullshit. I mean…it's true. But if you're playing–for example–just electro bangers from start to finish, your crowd adjusts. And apparently there are a lot of people that like being ignored.

And I've watched people care. Virtual laymen. People who are impressed by a DJ handling records and not having a computer in sight. It might just be fetishization of vinyl. But it's as valid as anything else said in the vast majority of these arguments.

I think the difference is if people are going to watch a DJ in particular or just going out to a nightclub for example. The big name DJs draw crowds that are specifically there to see them. People going to a nightclub are generally out for a different purpose. That's not to say that everyone is like that.

My disagreement with the statement quoted in my previous post is the assumption that sync somehow makes you less of a DJ. If nothing crashes, and you play all night, it makes no difference whether you've used sync or beat matched by ear.

A number of nightclubs I've been in the multiple countries I've traveled to, have DJ booths out of sight from the regular dance floor.

[Freak]

Why learn math when you have a calculator? or why learn to spell when you have spell check?

[BuddyUK]

Saw a DJ playing old school jungle and drum and bass on vinyl (occasional trainwreck included) hype up a room and get it rocking in December, dude came on with a macbook after him cleared the place 3/4 out in 10 minutes, also there was a serious difference in quality of the sound and this was on probably the best system in the club. Quite happy (resigned might be a better word) to seeing guys turn up with their laptops nowadays, if they are playing strictly their own music especially so. Also what is a big name DJ and what value does it carry in say London or Berlin nowadays? Seen so many come and seen so many go over the years, Kid Batchelor was easily one of the biggest DJS in the Acid house scene circa 88-89, last thing I heard he was coaching children at football on Hackney Marshes, fcuking Dougal used to be able to pull in a thousand punters easily about 20 years ago, where is he now? the USA is not the world, things are very different elsewhere you know.

[Sigma]

Why learn math when you have a calculator? or why learn to spell when you have spell check?
Exactly. I sometimes fire up the calculator on my PC to do maths that I could work out in my head because using the calculator is quicker and easier, but I could still do it in my head if I had to and that's the difference.

n00bs are happy to roll up here and ask for advice and read threads to get tips, but when it comes to this particular piece of advice they suddenly get all defensive and try and write it off as "yeah, but you're just some old vinyl purist blah blah" and they're happy to ignore the fact that many of the people telling them this aren't even using vinyl, or they're using DVS along with vinyl.

Learn the core skills before using shortcuts, then if for some reason you can't use shortcuts you're not going to be in the shit.

[Hausgeist]

n00bs are happy to roll up here and ask for advice and read threads to get tips, but when it comes to this particular piece of advice they suddenly get all defensive and try and write it off as "yeah, but you're just some old vinyl purist blah blah"

:bing::lol:

[GaFFLe]

To differentiate yourself from all the wack DJ's who cannot beatmatch.

[Hausgeist]

O wow djf is down for eons and when it is restored I come to see this

Go figure.

[Ashley Caveney]

being able to do everything by ear feels so much better instead of being stuck on traktor or vdj all your life

[Jason Cerna]

record the sound of shoes in a dryer and just play that if you're not going to bother remotely mixing.

and it's not like mixing two tracks with similar tempos is rocket science. some people are making it more difficult than it needs to be. beatmatching imo is like the baby scratch. it is something that needs to be learned before anything advanced goes on. but it's really not that hard once you practice it for a little bit.

[Sean]

This is a BS argument.

Seriously, I've had CDJs fail more often than laptops. Just don't buy bargain basement junk and you're fine.

OK I just saw this.
That is not a BS argument. Nobody spoke of the problem with CDJs crashing. But about them being used as backup if your computer bails on you. Sure CDJs crash, but if you end up in the situation where your laptop doesn't cooperate with you, then if you don't know beatmatching by ear you're fucked.

Who said anything about CDJs failing less often that laptops?????????

[blackfoxbb]

just asking but..

what about all the other ways of mixing 2 tracks?

[Windows 95]

I swear, when we get automated cars, people will ask why they should learn to drive.If we had cars that drove themselves, there's no way I would have ever wasted me time & energy on learning to drive. It would be completely pointless & a total waste of time.

When carriages became horseless, there was no reason to learn how to drive horses. Sure it could be argued that if your automobile broke down, you could pull it with a team of horses if knew how to drive a team of horses. But that's almost as bogus of an argument as you need to learn to beat match manually so you can use CDs or records if your laptop crashed.

Just to be prepared, you better always bring two Victrolas, a stack of 78s & some candles. You never know when there's going to be power failure.

[Windows 95]

Sure CDJs crash, but if you end up in the situation where your laptop doesn't cooperate with you, then if you don't know beatmatching by ear you're fucked.
Well what's the point of having a back up that's unreliable? Since laptops are a lot more reliable than CDJs, it would make a lot more sense to just have an extra laptop as a back up instead of a pair of CDJs.

[Sean]

Well what's the point of having a back up that's unreliable? Since laptops are a lot more reliable than CDJs, it would make a lot more sense to just have an extra laptop as a back up instead of a pair of CDJs.

Because if your system, and your backup both fail on you on the same night then you're unlucky enough to deserve it :P

A lot of clubs would have CDJs in house. An extra laptop is something you'd have to buy and bring with you yourself.

[mostapha]

OK I just saw this.
That is not a BS argument. Nobody spoke of the problem with CDJs crashing. But about them being used as backup if your computer bails on you. Sure CDJs crash, but if you end up in the situation where your laptop doesn't cooperate with you, then if you don't know beatmatching by ear you're fucked.

No, it's a BS argument because computers mostly don't fail unless you do something dumb. Thank you for completely ignoring my point.

I firmly believe that 90% of the reason beginners don't want to learn beatmatching is because the veterans can't come up with better excuses than "what happens if your laptop fails?"

Easy response…I press play on my iPhone, which is already plugged in with one of my recorded mixes cued up, fix the issue, effect it to all hell with the super awesome mixer the club bought, and start again without having to beat match a thing. It's a perfectly valid counterargument.


If we had cars that drove themselves, there's no way I would have ever wasted me time & energy on learning to drive. It would be completely pointless & a total waste of time.

When carriages became horseless, there was no reason to learn how to drive horses. Sure it could be argued that if your automobile broke down, you could pull it with a team of horses if knew how to drive a team of horses. But that's almost as bogus of an argument as you need to learn to beat match manually so you can use CDs or records if your laptop crashed.

Just to be prepared, you better always bring two Victrolas, a stack of 78s & some candles. You never know when there's going to be power failure.


Horrible analogy.

You don't need to learn to ride horses if you don't want to ride a horse. You should probably learn to DJ if you want to DJ–just like you need to ride a horse if you want to ride a horse–and learning to beatmatch teaches you how to DJ. It's not even because you have to do it…it's because it forces you to learn to listen in a specific way that teaches you the answers to a lot of beginner and intermediate questions.

And it's not that hard.

If the experienced guys stop making horrible, short-sighted, pointless arguments, maybe the new guys will stop responding with "you're stuck in the past." S/he may or may not be, but her/his arguments are.

[Windows 95]

You don't need to learn to ride horses if you don't want to ride a horse.There's a difference between riding horses & driving horses.
Riding = sitting on the horse
Driving = the horse(s) pulling something (plow, buggy, wagon, carriage, chariot, etc.)

[funkyfresh]

Learning to beatmatch by ear is one of those skills needed to make you that much better as a DJ when technology and modernized DVS type equipments are unavailable during a performance.

[ilya]

can't believe this hasn't been mentioned but uh...
1. you plan on mixing any music that has variations in tempo
2. you want to add some element of humanity to what you're doing that goes beyond song selection. 'perfectly' beatmatched mixes can get seriously booooooooring fast, make you sound lifeless just like everyone else/a robot.

[Sigma]

'perfectly' beatmatched mixes can get seriously booooooooring fast, make you sound lifeless just like everyone else/a robot.
I heard this a lot in mixes on the old site. Sometimes I could even hear where the DJ had dropped the track in out of time, but then it instantly seemed to correct itself and stay perfect throughout the blend, but the whole mix would sound like it was made by pouring a few tracks into a Ronco Bland-O-Matic and seeing what it spat out.

It's why I think that DJs that lack creativity gravitate towards it generally speaking, even though some use the opposite argument. It's funny cos they are the ones who are quick to use the "mixing isn't all about beatmatching!" argument, but then their mixes sound like that's the sole thing they've focussed on and they've even used a computer to do that for them.

[Hygro]

yeah sometimes when I'm hearing a big performance, I'll start to feel like it's out of touch with the live experience. Then a beat slip will occur and I feel better about the whole thing.

[Sigma]

yeah sometimes when I'm hearing a big performance, I'll start to feel like it's out of touch with the live experience. Then a beat slip will occur and I feel better about the whole thing.
Don't lie. All your favourite DJs will be miming at big performances. :P

[mostapha]

can't believe this hasn't been mentioned but uh...
1. you plan on mixing any music that has variations in tempo
2. you want to add some element of humanity to what you're doing that goes beyond song selection. 'perfectly' beatmatched mixes can get seriously booooooooring fast, make you sound lifeless just like everyone else/a robot.


Ableton Live exists.
I think you're completely wrong about that. In every way. Beat matching is either right or wrong. Trainwrecks are not an artistic choice.



yeah sometimes when I'm hearing a big performance, I'll start to feel like it's out of touch with the live experience. Then a beat slip will occur and I feel better about the whole thing.

No one feels that way.

[Hygro]

Don't lie. All your favourite DJs will be miming at big performances. :P

Oh yeah, who are my favorite DJs? :D

[Hygro]

I think you're completely wrong about that. In every way. Beat matching is either right or wrong. Trainwrecks are not an artistic choice.


..
No one feels that way.
Not even. I have a friend who isn't (or wasn't anyway) even a DJ. He was into entry level dance music. Deadmau5 was his favorite artist. Skrillex was his jam. Avicii was his homeboy, etc. Even he, like a year and a half into the music, would express the same sentiment, that he liked it better when an artist would mess up once and again. He liked it to be mostly flawless, with an occasional "tell"

[Atomisk]

Don't lie. All your favourite DJs will be miming at big performances. :P

Swedish House Mafia at MSG. Their beatmatching was not perfect, I could point out so many slightly stuttering beats in that mix. Maybe it's because they only have one set of headphones haha

[ilya]

Ableton Live exists.
I think you're completely wrong about that. In every way. Beat matching is either right or wrong. Trainwrecks are not an artistic choice.



1. I'm fully aware that Ableton Live exists. So does Audacity, Sound Forge, and bunch of other tools for editing audio. It'd be just as snarky of me to say that music that's not intended to have a consistent tempo exists too but I won't go there :P I'm sure you're experienced enough to understand that warping a substantial part of a song like that can introduce nasty artifacts regardless of which software you're using and/or more importantly destroy the groove, swing and a large part of what makes that track special in itself.

2. Yes, technically beat matching is either 'right or wrong'... no one was saying otherwise. I also don't understand why you're suggesting that the only alternative to a 'perfectly' matched mix is a trainwreck - it's definitely not. A slight, subtle offset during a transition introduces personality into the mix; if that bothers you then you're going to end up avoiding a lot of stellar mixes from incredibly talented DJs. If you want to listen to a paint-by-numbers, perfectly synced up robo-mix there's plenty out there. Personally, I find the tension appealing and so do a lot of other folks that don't DJ but regularly go out to shows. If you don't think dancers can tell and appreciate the difference too you're kidding yourself. Listen to Juan Atkins mix and you'll know it's him. Listen to Jeff Mills mix and you'll know it's him (although this is obviously a more extreme example). Listen to DJ Harvey mix and you'll know it's him... That's not solely just because of their selections, it's also a matter of how they mix, how they beatmatch, how they deal with tracks with tempo fluctuation.


No one feels that way.

Umm, I do, I think so does Sigma and Hygro & his boy... that's at least 4 :) Then again, I don't typically go to 'big performances' unless it's a festival or a non-dance kinda show.

I'll add a third point too. By not learning to beat match you severely limit the music you're able to play. For those of us that are at all interested in digging for rare but awesome gems, a good percentage of our music collection isn't necessarily available in a digital format. Again, not so much a concern if you're just playing robo-beatport-chart tracks or if you happen to have a nice ($$$) way to digitize your music while maintaining the original recordings integrity. Definitely a valid consideration for the rest of us though.

[BuddyUK]

2. Yes, technically beat matching is either 'right or wrong'... No one was saying otherwise. I also don't understand why you're suggesting that the only alternative to a 'perfectly' matched mix is a trainwreck - it's definitely not. A slight, subtle offset during a transition introduces personality into the mix; if that bothers you then you're going to end up avoiding a lot of stellar mixes from incredibly talented djs. If you want to listen to a paint-by-numbers, perfectly synced up robo-mix there's plenty out there. personally, i find the tension appealing and so do a lot of other folks that don't dj but regularly go out to shows. If you don't think dancers can tell and appreciate the difference too you're kidding yourself. Listen to juan atkins mix and you'll know it's him. Listen to jeff mills mix and you'll know it's him (although this is obviously a more extreme example). Listen to dj harvey mix and you'll know it's him... That's not solely just because of their selections, it's also a matter of how they mix, how they beatmatch, how they deal with tracks with tempo fluctuation.


Amen! Preach it brother! :worship:

[BuddyUK]

record the sound of shoes in a dryer and just play that if you're not going to bother remotely mixing.

and it's not like mixing two tracks with similar tempos is rocket science. some people are making it more difficult than it needs to be. beatmatching imo is like the baby scratch. it is something that needs to be learned before anything advanced goes on. but it's really not that hard once you practice it for a little bit.


The guys from Wrong Music put 100 CD's in a washing machine live on stage once :lol:

[Alex Murphy]

This thread is still going? I'll make it short and sweet:


Why should I learn to beatmatch?

Because you're a noob, noob. As in


http://image.bayimg.com/jahghaada.jpg

[TheFrenchWay]

I would rather hear a DJ rocking out with a few slips here and there over a DJ rocking out a set flawless using sync with his headphones glued to his neck...Just saying.

But yeah it is important to master every aspect of the sport to play the game right.

[mostapha]

A slight, subtle offset during a transition introduces personality into the mix; if that bothers you then you're going to end up avoiding a lot of stellar mixes from incredibly talented DJs.

It's not a matter of me avoiding them…if I think it's going to be good or someone I respect says it's good, I'll listen. But flaws do not enhance my experience. In some cases, they don't detract from it…but it's never like "yeah…that mix was awesome…would have totally sucked without that drift b/t 5 and 6…that totally made the set."

That's crap.

And especially in recorded mixes, it's possible to be flawless. It's even easy to be flawless. Choosing not to be is stubbornness. Saying that mistakes somehow make you more authentic is just wankery.

[Era 7]

can't we all just agree that learning how to beatmatch is important just because it will sparks threads like these? :facepalm:

[L2daGee]

Fundamentals...

[Shepherd]

Title says it all. Asking on behalf of a friend.

Think of it as learning to drive a stick shift before driving an automatic.

[Lost Connection]

Think of it as learning to drive a stick shift before driving an automatic.

*applause* Exactly. And when you know how, it's always more fun to DJ. If you just use the sync button... Well, it's not that much fun.

[Alex Murphy]

is that thread still going? Let's just look at the title again, it starts with.


Why should I learn

Because that's the difference that separate monkeys from men. That also makes the difference between wannabe and genuine DJ. Don't want to learn, fine. Stay at (computer assisted) noob level.

[Nicadraus]

*applause* Exactly. And when you know how, it's always more fun to DJ. If you just use the sync button... Well, it's not that much fun.

Agreed! :tup:


is that thread still going? Let's just look at the title again, it starts with.

Because that's the difference that separate monkeys from men. That also makes the difference between wannabe and genuine DJ. Don't want to learn, fine. Stay at (computer assisted) noob level.

Very true! :tup:

[RINIFLeX]

Not even. I have a friend who isn't (or wasn't anyway) even a DJ. He was into entry level dance music. Deadmau5 was his favorite artist. Skrillex was his jam. Avicii was his homeboy, etc. Even he, like a year and a half into the music, would express the same sentiment, that he liked it better when an artist would mess up once and again. He liked it to be mostly flawless, with an occasional "tell"

I agree 100%. Not that it made the set better, but it adds a human element to an otherwise (possibly) out of touch performance from the booth. Not that the music is out of touch with what the crowd wants, but it adds more visibility to the DJ. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a night club, can't see the dj and I feel out of touch with the performance(even though the music is still rocking).

Seeing (or hearing) a DJ "wince" when a beat slips, adds to the performance. I feel his pain, kinda sorta thing. Get it?

EDIT: and to Atomisk, you know why beat matching is important, we have argued about this on end in DJF 1.0. I thought you were getting it by reading some of you posts on DJTT. Hopefully you did. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[mostapha]

Think of it as learning to drive a stick shift before driving an automatic.

The difference between that and beat matching–apart form the great car jacking I did back in DJF 1.0–is that manual transmissions just plain give you better control over the car. Beat matching is either right or wrong.

I could easily see myself using auto-sync again in the future. I will never again own an automatic transmission now that I know how to drive a stick. I drive >20,000 miles/year, mostly in Atlanta traffic. And I think that driving an Automatic is irresponsible.

[Windows 95]

I will never again own an automatic transmission now that I know how to drive a stick. I drive >20,000 miles/year, mostly in Atlanta traffic. And I think that driving an Automatic is irresponsible.Our Driver's Ed car at the High School I went to had a manual transmission. I hated it then & I've hated them every since. I've owned more cars, trucks & vans that had manual transmissions than those that had automatic transmissions. The one & only reason I've ever bought a vehicle with a manual transmission, is because they are significantly cheaper than the exact same vehicle with an automatic.

If I see someone driving a car with a manual transmission & it's not a Porsche, a Ferrari or something similar. I automatically assume the driver is too broke to buy a real car.

As far as irresponsible, I've never had a vehicle with an automatic back into me (hill) when the light turned green, or had to apply my brakes every time your car shifts gears while following you onto a crowded freeway on ramp.

[Alex Murphy]

If I see someone driving a car with a manual transmission & it's not a Porsche, a Ferrari or something similar. I automatically assume the driver is too broke to buy a real car.


automatic cars are in minority over here. People assume the driver is either lazy, old, or disabled. Also automatic cars are bad for fuel consumption.


As far as irresponsible, I've never had a vehicle with an automatic back into me (hill) when the light turned green, or had to apply my brakes every time your car shifts gears while following you onto a crowded freeway on ramp.

never had a manual car reverse onto me. Probably because the first gear is located at the exact opposite of the reverse, and in some cars you even have to lift the gear stick to get in reverse. Apply brakes when the automatic transmission shift gears? That sounds dodgy. Try to do this with an automatic car:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU

[Windows 95]

never had a manual car reverse onto me. Probably because the first gear is located at the exact opposite of the reverse,Reverse gear has nothing to do with it. When you're on a hill, manual transmission vehicles almost always roll backward before they move forward. Automatics don't.


Apply brakes when the automatic transmission shift gears?:confused: What in the world are you talking about?

As far as gas mileage, 30 years ago a manual transmissions might of gotten better gas mileage. But modern computer controlled automatics usually get better gas mileage than manuals.

[Windows 95]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhUWow! What a horrible driver, he looks like a drunk driver. He spends as much time off the road as he does on the road.






Here's an example what real drivers look like:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua9kBa0H_iY

[Alex Murphy]

Tell me about it, he can't even put his feet on the pedals without going sideways.


Reverse gear has nothing to do with it. When you're on a hill, manual transmission vehicles almost always roll backward before they move forward. Automatics don't.


Over here, people are trained to use the handbrake to go uphill from a standstill. It's part of obtaining a licence, if you can't do it you won't have it. Basic skill, and that sort of debate does not even exist over here.



As far as gas mileage, 30 years ago a manual transmissions might of gotten better gas mileage. But modern computer controlled automatics usually get better gas mileage than manuals.


As far as what I can see from my end, automatic cars have a worse mpg than manuals, especially in town.

[drop1]

And this has what to do with beatmatching??? :P

[Windows 95]

Over here, people are trained to use the handbrake to go uphill from a standstill. It's part of obtaining a licence, if you can't do it you won't have it. Basic skill,True, but here in the USA the vast majority of people learn with an automatic, test in an automatic & spend their whole lives driving automatics. Most truck & van drivers know to use the hand brake on a hill if it's not an automatic, but probably less than 10% (And that's being overly generous.) of people driving a car with a manual transmission know that here.

[Sigma]

Think of it as learning to drive a stick shift before driving an automatic.
Car analogies! Yay!

It's a good one though, cos it does illustrate the point. In the UK if you take your driving test in an automatic and you pass, you can only drive automatics. If you take your test in a manual car (stick shift), you can drive either. I would rather be able to drive any car I like than have to think "does this have an automatic gearbox? If it doesn't I can't drive it."

[Marc S]

lmao, he didnt just call ayrton senna a horrible driver. and then say a drag racer is even in the same league. jesus, Charley has come out with some ridiculous stuff in the past, but thats the most ill informed and ridiculous thing ever.

and auto's get worse mileage, its better than it was but its still worse, but worse still, is that automatics loose a large % of the engines power.

and "too broke" ? since manuals cost about the same as an auto that makes no sense,

and "real cars" for drivers, not people who need to get to the store and do chores, have manual gears. "auto's" are for people who dont like driving.

[Windows 95]

In the UK if you take your driving test in an automatic and you pass, you can only drive automatics. If you take your test in a manual car (stick shift), you can drive either.Here in the USA there is no distinction between the two. You test in an automatic, your license allows you to drive both. Whether or not you know anything about driving a vehicle with a manual transmission is completely irrelevant.

[Marc S]

And especially in recorded mixes, it's possible to be flawless. It's even easy to be flawless. Choosing not to be is stubbornness. Saying that mistakes somehow make you more authentic is just wankery.

i like this for 2 reasons, 1) because i agree with it being possible for a flawless mix whilst done manually and just accepting that it wont be shows lack of ambition. that's not to say you shouldnt forgive the odd slip though, if a dj is manually mixing and there is a slip its not the end of the world. but i can think of a vast collection of mix's that dj's i know both personally, big names like carl cox, and even myself that have not a single mistake in the mixing.

and 2) because Wankery is possibly the greatest word ive heard in a long time.

[Alex Murphy]

lmao, he didnt just call ayrton senna a horrible driver. and then say a drag racer is even in the same league. jesus, Charley has come out with some ridiculous stuff in the past, but thats the most ill informed and ridiculous thing ever.

I hoped he was being sarcastic, because the youtube link clearly displays his name. Though the drag race video didn't leave much room for doubt.

[Alex Murphy]

I would rather be able to drive any car I like than have to think "does this have an automatic gearbox? If it doesn't I can't drive it."

I tried automatic cars before, I tend to clutch the brake :teef:

[mostapha]

As far as irresponsible, I've never had a vehicle with an automatic back into me (hill) when the light turned green, or had to apply my brakes every time your car shifts gears while following you onto a crowded freeway on ramp.

Those drivers are incompetent. There's a difference between incompetent and irresponsible.

If you weren't inside my car, you wouldn't know I drove a manual. And I don't consider myself that good.


I tried automatic cars before, I tend to clutch the brake :teef::stupid:


automatic cars are in minority over here. People assume the driver is either lazy, old, or disabled. Also automatic cars are bad for fuel consumption.:stupid:


never had a manual car reverse onto me. Probably because the first gear is located at the exact opposite of the reverse, and in some cars you even have to lift the gear stick to get in reverse. Apply brakes when the automatic transmission shift gears? That sounds dodgy.

He's talking about people who drive manuals and can't heel & toe hill start without rolling back and who actually depress the clutch all the way when accelerating hard. There are still people who double-clutch every shift despite the fact that all it does is wear out your car faster.

Some would say it's better for them to drive Automatics. I kind of think it's better for them to not drive. But I'm an asshole.

I can't imagine driving in inclement weather (rain, snow, ice, etc.) without a clutch anymore…I've forgotten how to drive in traffic without knowing how much torque will be available when I press the accelerator.

Automatics scare the shit out of me because the car keeps doing things that I don't understand. Why in the heck would it shift into fifth at 30mph? All that does is waste gas and add like a second-long delay to you correcting for the oversteer that's probably going to happen if you have to change lanes around someone who did something you didn't expect.

I also think traction control is dumb. The last time I voluntarily drove an automatic with traction control, I wound up in a trauma ward (in January of 2007). I'm neither kidding nor exaggerating.

It's possible the slide was unrecoverable (oversteer slide out of a corner with wet pinestraw on the exit). I wasn't speeding or driving recklessly and had actually turned TC back on because–at the time-I thought it was safer in the rain. I now know better.

The only way to correct for breaking/surface induced oversteer is by turning out of the corner and smoothly adding power to add weight (technically, normal force resulting from suspension compression) to the rear wheels, overcoming your lack of traction. Not having torque available when I needed it didn't help matters (a result of TC and an automatic)…and by the time it showed up, I was probably pushing so hard on the pedal (trying to coax it into shifting into the proper gear) that it made the slide worse instead of fixing it…the outside rear wheel was either locked up from "intelligent" braking or spinning from dumping torque in all at once instead of the way I tried to do it.

The only way modern Traction Control systems can correct for that kind of thing is by altering which of your driven wheels are giving you torque (which All-wheel-drive systems and limited slip differentials do) or by assuming the driver's an idiot and applying breaks to the wheels that are skidding…which is exactly the wrong thing to do if the driver's trying to correct breaking-induced oversteer on his own.

I was fine apart from a concussion and some cuts from crawling out of the window (door was stuck shut). But it was 10 grand in medical bills because the ambulance driver couldn't believe I walked away from that wreck.

After that crash, I didn't drive for a week or two…when I did, it was mostly because of Marc S giving my description of the crash to a pro driver friend of a friend and his response to it. I started doing research into how TC systems work and why the car didn't respond the way I thought it would. Then, I went out to a huge parking lot on a rainy day with traffic cones and powdered dish soap and tried to recreate what happened and see if what I could get out of a friend's car matched the research I'd done…and then bought a manual transmission car with traction control that can be completely disabled (there aren't that many of them…most of the "off" buttons just raise the limits of what it allows before assuming the driver's an idiot and correcting for power-induced skids instead of breaking-induced skids regardless of what the cause was).

Maybe I'm an asshole about it, but automatics and "intelligent" cars terrify me.

Edit: wow…did I turn a beat matching thread into a car thread again, and get one of my opinions complimented by one of the guys who essentially taught me to DJ? Sweet.


Wankery is possibly the greatest word ive heard in a long time.

One of my friends spent a few months at LSE and worked for the Ministry of Justice. I've picked up a few idioms and adapted them because Brits just swear better than Americans.

[Windows 95]

and "too broke" ? since manuals cost about the same as an auto that makes no sense, Here in the USA with a new vehicle you'll usually pay over a thousand dollars extra for the automatic transmission option.
For used vehicles a standard shift car is usually worth less than half what an automatic costs. And an used (one ton or less) truck or van with a manual transmission will usually be about 25% less expensive than an automatic truck or van.

[Alex Murphy]

because it costs more does not make it superior. I don't understand certain people mindsets and their appreciation of something being better because it costs more. Cost and worth are two different things.




Automatics scare the shit out of me because the car keeps doing things that I don't understand. Why in the heck would it shift into fifth at 30mph? All that does is waste gas and add like a second-long delay to you correcting for the oversteer that's probably going to happen if you have to change lanes around someone who did something you didn't expect.

That's pretty much why I don't enjoy driving automatics. Mainly about attacking curves in the wrong gear, and it causes some massive oversteer as opposed to a manual: gear down, foot down and the car will stick to the road. Or overtake a lorry in an automatic, put your foot down and nothing happens until the transmission starts picking up.

[Windows 95]

Or overtake a lorry in an automatic, put your foot down and nothing happens until the transmission starts picking up.An example of not knowing how to drive an automatic?
The 1, 2, 3 & 4 between the N & the D aren't there just for decoration.

[Alex Murphy]

An example of not knowing how to drive an automatic?
The 1, 2, 3 & 4 between the N & the D aren't there just for decoration.
Defeats the point of being automatic. I'd rather push the sport button and ignore the stick, still feels like a ton of time wasted while the automatic transmission keeps on clutching for what seems ages.

Then automatics are useless when it comes to using engine brake.

[BuddyUK]

Sorry Marc but i've herad Carl Cox trainwreck and make mistakes plenty of times.

[Marc S]

Oh so have I, but I've heard him mix flawlessly too,

[-J]

If I see someone driving a car with a manual transmission & it's not a Porsche, a Ferrari or something similar. I automatically assume the driver is too broke to buy a real car.

I just assume people who buy automatics are too stupid and lazy to learn how to properly drive.

P.S. Typically, pound for pound, manual versions of cars are faster than automatic versions.

[Windows 95]

P.S. Typically, pound for pound, manual versions of cars are faster than automatic versions.Which is why they make sense if you're driving a sports car.

[jazzyj]

I just assume people who buy automatics are too stupid and lazy to learn how to properly drive.

P.S. Typically, pound for pound, manual versions of cars are faster than automatic versions.

.....This was sarcasm right?

People who need to drive THAT fast... you know the kind of fast where you actually take the time to care that auto vs. manual is faster... end up with more speeding tickets ($), use more fuel to go the same distance ($), have higher insurance ($), likely have more accidents ($), and have higher auto maint/repairs ($).

Now I mean, I'm a conservative person, and feel that everyone should be able to make their own choices when it comes to how to spend their money, but that's a whole lotta money to spend just so you can drive a lil faster. But I don't think purchasing an automatic makes a person stupid or lazy nor does purchasing a manual mean you know how to properly drive.

[Obsidianice]

I'm new here, but I would say yes. I haven't even ordered my hardware yet, but I've been working on beatmatching using software only already. Seems like a good idea since hardware can and will fail. I intend to have beatmatching down to a science before playing with the sync. I've always found that you're typically better off with a good solid foundation.

[Marc S]

hmm,

(just looked on insurance website compared 3 cars in identical spec apart from manual vs automatic) both the same insurance group

automatics are LESS fuel economic, a manual car driven well is significantly better on fuel (indisputable)

my parents both drive manuals, both drive quite powerful cars too, neither one has a ticket and neither has ever had an accident.

automatic gearbox costs more to replace and repair.

[jazzyj]

hmm,

(just looked on insurance website compared 3 cars in identical spec apart from manual vs automatic) both the same insurance group

automatics are LESS fuel economic, a manual car driven well is significantly better on fuel (indisputable)

my parents both drive manuals, both drive quite powerful cars too, neither one has a ticket and neither has ever had an accident.

automatic gearbox costs more to replace and repair.

Did they buy the manuals because they wanted to go faster than the automatic counterparts?

If you look, you'll see that I was discussing the person, not the car. And not just any person who owns a manual, but a person who actually cares about the slight difference in speed and need to go faster than an automatic. Those people feel the need for speed, are more likely to have more speeding tickets, which will lead to higher insurance, which will lead to higher fuel usage because they are lead-foots, (based on statistics) higher chance of being in an accident - which again leads to higher insurance - and also leads to higher repair bills.

[-J]

.....This was sarcasm right?

People who need to drive THAT fast... you know the kind of fast where you actually take the time to care that auto vs. manual is faster... end up with more speeding tickets ($), use more fuel to go the same distance ($), have higher insurance ($), likely have more accidents ($), and have higher auto maint/repairs ($).

You drive a Prius... really?

End up with more speeding tickets: FALSE, just because the car ACCELERATES faster and has a slightly faster top speed doesn't mean people are blowing by the speed limit. I haven't had a speeding ticket in 8+ years.
Use more fuel to go the same distance: FALSE, manuals are more fuel efficient than an automatic with a torque converter. Paracitic loss is much higher in an auto than a manual.
Have higher insurance: FALSE, my insurance company doesn't give a shit if I drive an auto or manual.
Likely have more accidents: FALSE, manual drivers often have a higher level of driving skill and pay more attention when driving, because they have to.
Have higher auto maint/repairs: FALSE, manual transmissions are less complex, and cheaper to maintain than an automatic.

I was mostly being sarcastic because of Charlie's jackassed comment about "poor people" driving Manuals. I drive a manual because I enjoy driving, and like the extra level of control I have over my car.

[Marc S]

my mum did, she likes sporty cars, and my dad bought one because NOBODY buys automatics in europe unless you are old or disabled usually or you're like a long distance sales rep. autos are RARE in europe.

My Gf drives an auto because her left knee is fucked,

[-J]

Did they buy the manuals because they wanted to go faster than the automatic counterparts?

If you look, you'll see that I was discussing the person, not the car. And not just any person who owns a manual, but a person who actually cares about the slight difference in speed and need to go faster than an automatic. Those people feel the need for speed, are more likely to have more speeding tickets, which will lead to higher insurance, which will lead to higher fuel usage because they are lead-foots, (based on statistics) higher chance of being in an accident - which again leads to higher insurance - and also leads to higher repair bills.

Your argument is stupid, and based on terrible logic. Just because someone wants the better performing car doesn't mean they drive like an asshole. Sometimes I need to use the power my car has, with a manual it's THERE, I can drop gears and go when I need to. Doesn't mean I'm tearing around town doing 65 down private roads.

Ironically, most of the people I know who are straight up asshole drivers, drive automatics.

[jazzyj]

You drive a Prius... really?

End up with more speeding tickets: FALSE, just because the car ACCELERATES faster and has a slightly faster top speed doesn't mean people are blowing by the speed limit.
Use more fuel to go the same distance: FALSE, manuals are more fuel efficient than an automatic with a torque converter. Paracitic loss is much higher in an auto than a manual.
Have higher insurance: FALSE, my insurance company doesn't give a shit if I drive an auto or manual.
Likely have more accidents: FALSE, manual drivers often have a higher level of driving skill and pay more attention when driving, because they have to.
Have higher auto maint/repairs: FALSE, manual transmissions are less complex, and cheaper to maintain than an automatic.

I was mostly being sarcastic because of Charlie's jackassed comment about "poor people" driving Manuals. I drive a manual because I enjoy driving, and like the extra level of control I have over my car.

Yes. A Prius. Really. Because I commute nearly 50 miles a day, 5 days a week, and with the Prius I come out at about 51mpg, and have literally cut my gas bill in half.

My point was that someone who really cares that much about the slight difference in how much faster they can go in manual vs. automatic are at the least a bit obsessive about speed and YOU said the manuals are FASTER than automatics - you did not say ACCELERATE faster. My deduction was that someone who care about such speed, likes to speed which then follows the logic:

If you like speeding, then you probably have more speeding tickets. If you drive unnecessarily fast, you use more fuel than a person driving at a more ideal cruising speed. Your insurance company does care that you get more speeding tickets and have a higher collision rate or at the least a higher chance of having a collision rate, therefore you will have higher insurance. And if you have a higher chance of a collision rate, it is quite likely that you will have higher repairs.

My interpretation was really based on the speed-obsessiveness of the person - not so much the car. But if someone is willing to battle/argue someone over the fact that a manual can go faster than an automatic, then I'm not sure what else to think other than the person is indeed somewhat obsessed with auto speed since it is clear that both a manual and automatic have the ability to achieve the legal speed limits. If the manual can go faster, then it must be going beyond the legal speed limit.

[jazzyj]

my mum did, she likes sporty cars, and my dad bought one because NOBODY buys automatics in europe unless you are old or disabled usually or you're like a long distance sales rep. autos are RARE in europe.

My Gf drives an auto because her left knee is fucked,

Your mum likes sporty cars - or fast cars. There is a difference. He said manuals are faster than automatics. Not in acceleration, he just said faster. Leads one to believe a person wants to go faster if they buy a car because it can go faster than an automatic.

[jazzyj]

Ironically, most of the people I know who are straight up asshole drivers, drive automatics.

And even more ironically you've stated that people who drive automatics are stupid, lazy, and straight up assholes. Lots of logic there.

[Marc S]

both, she's a "gear head" as you guys call it. put it this way my dad is looking at buying an R8 as a retirement present to himself and my mum wants an SL AMG.

she like's fast and sporty cars, she dont drive like ferrari's or nothing, but that also depends on your definition of fast. and manuals are faster than autos in all conditions, acceleration, top speed etc. auto box's reduce the power.

[Marc S]

And even more ironically you've stated that people who drive automatics are stupid, lazy, and straight up assholes. Lots of logic there.

that was a sarcastic response.

[-J]

Yes. A Prius. Really. Because I commute nearly 50 miles a day, 5 days a week, and with the Prius I come out at about 51mpg, and have literally cut my gas bill in half.

My point was that someone who really cares that much about the slight difference in how much faster they can go in manual vs. automatic are at the least a bit obsessive about speed and YOU said the manuals are FASTER than automatics - you did not say ACCELERATE faster. My deduction was that someone who care about such speed, likes to speed which then follows the logic:

Ok, so you're nitpicking. The top speed difference is in the single digits (double if the car is a beast), I said "faster" meaning acceleration and overall speed, not just speed. I dumbed down my statement because most people associate "faster" and "speed" to quickness AND top speed, not just the latter.

I stated a FACT, Period. Manual transmission cars are quicker, faster, cheaper to maintain, and more fuel efficient than their automatic counterparts. Fact, end of story, and if you think it's because I'm obsessive about the speed difference, you're an idiot. I drive a manual because I want full control of my car, I enjoy DRIVING, I don't enjoy just being a passenger.

[-J]

And even more ironically you've stated that people who drive automatics are stupid, lazy, and straight up assholes. Lots of logic there.

I addressed that already, so while you're nitpicking, you might want to backtrack and read some more.

And that's not irony, I stated a factual observation, and I don't drive like an asshole.

[jazzyj]

both, she's a "gear head" as you guys call it. put it this way my dad is looking at buying an R8 as a retirement present to himself and my mum wants an SL AMG.

she like's fast and sporty cars, she dont drive like ferrari's or nothing, but that also depends on your definition of fast. and manuals are faster than autos in all conditions, acceleration, top speed etc. auto box's reduce the power.

I did always wonder though. What's the point of owning a car that can go really fast if you don't ever drive it that fast (legally)? I get the point of acceleration - I sometimes miss my V6 SUV, but if I had a car that would go faster as far as top speed then I dunno.. just not my thing I guess.

[jazzyj]

I addressed that already, so while you're nitpicking, you might want to backtrack and read some more.

And that's not irony, I stated a factual observation, and I don't drive like an asshole.

No but you're acting like one making general statements about people based on what car they drive.

[jazzyj]

that was a sarcastic response.

well.. it was "mostly" sarcasm. who knows which part was and which wasn't?

[Marc S]

I did always wonder though. What's the point of owning a car that can go really fast if you don't ever drive it that fast (legally)? I get the point of acceleration - I sometimes miss my V6 SUV, but if I had a car that would go faster as far as top speed then I dunno.. just not my thing I guess.

meh, you can go to pretty much any F1 track or race track these days, pay a few ££ and get laps to abuse the crap out of your tyres.

[Hausgeist]

These threads never end well. :facepalm:

http://i39.tinypic.com/23u9yxg.gif

Edit: Actually, the beginning and middle parts suck as well.

[-J]

No but you're acting like one making general statements about people based on what car they drive.

No... you are.

Read what I said. I made a specific reference, not a general statement.

[-J]

well.. it was "mostly" sarcasm. who knows which part was and which wasn't?

Figured it was obvious.

[jazzyj]

Figured it was obvious.

:love: it's ok. i agree with you. people don't drive manuals cuz they are poor. they drive em cuz they are usually gear heads as Marc says. I just happened to be driving an automatic tho, and i didnt care to be called stupid or lazy. but it's ok. i love you. :love:

ps - it would certainly help solve our driving/texting issue in america :) you can't text and stick it at the same time - well you could but tragedy. :uhoh:

[-J]

:love: it's ok. i agree with you. people don't drive manuals cuz they are poor. they drive em cuz they are usually gear heads as Marc says. I just happened to be driving an automatic tho, and i didnt care to be called stupid or lazy. but it's ok. i love you. :love:

ps - it would certainly help solve our driving/texting issue in america :) you can't text and stick it at the same time - well you could but tragedy. :uhoh:

:lol: NOW you're getting it!

[jazzyj]

If I see someone driving a car with a manual transmission & it's not a Porsche, a Ferrari or something similar. I automatically assume the driver is too broke to buy a real car.

See. dummy. what all you put us threw with overgeneralization? sheesh.

[Alex Murphy]

These threads never end well. :facepalm:

http://i39.tinypic.com/23u9yxg.gif

Edit: Actually, the beginning and middle parts suck as well.

This means it's going to end. At some point. In before the lock.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/5/27/129194486339043634.jpg

I see you.

[Atomisk]

This means it's going to end. At some point. In before the lock.
I see you.
Haus already locked it and Stripe re-opened it...

[jazzyj]

oh. well i kissed n made up with -J. so now it's all on the words of Windows95. lol :)

[Era 7]

:eek::whack: why is this thread still going?

[Dj_4-$hure]

^^^ Because people have nothing better to do.

[mostapha]

meh, you can go to pretty much any F1 track or race track these days, pay a few ££ and get laps to abuse the crap out of your tyres.

That's kind of awesome. I think you can do that at some of the tracks here too, but they're not nearly as much fun.


:love: it's ok. i agree with you. people don't drive manuals cuz they are poor. they drive em cuz they are usually gear heads as Marc says. I just happened to be driving an automatic tho, and i didnt care to be called stupid or lazy. but it's ok. i love you. :love:

ps - it would certainly help solve our driving/texting issue in america :) you can't text and stick it at the same time - well you could but tragedy. :uhoh:

I didn't call you stupid or lazy (others did). I called you irresponsible. I kind of stand by it.

And, yes, it's really hard to text while driving a stick. I still read text messages if I think they're important, but if I have to reply I pull over and stop. Didn't do that when I drove automatics.


:eek::whack: why is this thread still going?

because it's about cars now.

[Alex Murphy]

And, yes, it's really hard to text while driving a stick. I still read text messages if I think they're important, but if I have to reply I pull over and stop. Didn't do that when I drove automatics.


You guys are legally allowed to text and drive?

[mostapha]

No, it's like a $300 fine in Georgia. That law's only about a year old, and it's still legal in some places.

If it's under safe conditions, it takes me less time to glance at it and read a text than to change the song on my iPhone, and most of the time the messages i'm reading are "omw" or "we have a table in the back". Mostly, I just do it in insanely thick traffic when everyone's driving <10mph and has given up on changing lanes.

IMHO, it's just typing that's unsafe…and that's only because it's a touch screen. When I had a real phone with real buttons, I could type 20 WPM without looking at the phone, and it took no more attention than changing radio presets or digging my iPod out from between the seats without dislodging the cable. I do really miss the control surface on the iPod, though…iPhones suck as media players.

i usually just had my phone to someone else if there's anyone in the car with me, though. No reason to take chances like that if you can help it.

[Hygro]

not in California, and rightly so. Texting and driving ups your accident rate ludicrously. Even those split moments are not safe at all. It would be like driving and bending around to pick up something off the back seat's floor. Repeatedly. Texting while driving is ~8 times more dangerous than driving drunk.

[steeevo]

Never used sync and never will, i would end up syncing 2 tracks and standing there throwing in loads of shit effects instead of mixing 2 tracks the proper way while actually djing instead of using sync, the sync button has made everyone a dj and it piss's me off that anyone with a computer and a few quid can be a dj in about 30minutes!!!!!!!
Finished

[jazzyj]

You guys are legally allowed to text and drive?

Not in Kentucky. But it's almost impossible to enforce. The law still allows you to use your phone for calls, gps - just not text-based communications. So they would have to prove you were actually sending texts around the time they pulled you over - and of course if you used an app for texting, then that would be difficult to prove. EITHER way, yea it's dangerous. My husband still makes an attempt every once in awhile to read a text while driving and I grab his phone from him. ole crazy ass lol

[jazzyj]

I didn't call you stupid or lazy (others did). I called you irresponsible. I kind of stand by it.

...Mostapha. Do I know you? I was talking to -J...

[Hausgeist]

http://i44.tinypic.com/11lu6mw.gif

[Finnish_Fox]

http://ljforestier.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/flame-war.jpg

[jazzyj]

All is well with -J and I <3

http://img.phombo.com/img1/photocombo/6774/cache/Internet_display.jpg

[Hausgeist]

http://i44.tinypic.com/ifsc92.gif