Modding to increase maximum gains on a Xone 62? Is it possible?

[Gronchula]

Hey, I am wondering if it is possibly to mod the xone62 mixer to increase the gain of the gain pots. I have been having trouble with low level pressed records not being able to peak at +6db without boosting EQ's to compensate.

It's rather annoying when you are 100% gain, 100% master and can't peak certain records at the proper level midway through a set. I've noticed I have NEVER had to go into negative gains either... What's the point of having the gain pots set with such a huge ammount of cut available when there isn't enough positive gain for certain pressings...

Regardless, I'd like to be able to increase the ammount of gain available on the mixer, even if it means limiting my negative gain available as its never used anyhow.


Cheers!

[DTR]

The short answer is no. Why do you have to run at +6dB? If you ran at 0dB you'd naturally have more headroom.

[Gronchula]

The short answer is no. Why do you have to run at +6dB? If you ran at 0dB you'd naturally have more headroom.

The mixer's channels are designed to run and sound best peaking at +6db as well as the channel LED is calibrated to light up at +6db. Running the channels low is not the greatest solution in my mind, I would rather modify the internals for more gain boost, not running channel signals well below intended levels and resulting in a master ouput level significantly below unity.


I would imagine by removing and soldering in some new parts, a higher gain or a different range of gain could be acheived.EG, instead of -10 to +10 | -5 to +15 would be perfect. But I could use more insight on this. So how about the long answer?

I don't know if this applies, but look at the range of the EQ pots on the first two channels vs the last four, -15 to +15 db vs -26db to +6db
I'm not an expert but this seems to imply it's more than possible to have different ranges of signal boosts and cuts and therfor modifiable aswell. Though obviously not the most simple modification. It's just circuitry afterall.

[Marc S]

you shouldnt be running the gains that high at all, in no situation in 20 years have i ever had a mixer up full gain/channel/master, you should be turning your amps up, and master/gains down.

[NPC]

The pots are not directly increasing your gain. I'm sure that's left up to either a VCA/op-amp setup or it's acting as a digi pot with something else doing the actual attenuating. Replacing the pot is not a good idea by any means. I think your mixer has a problem or you really love LEDs. Perhaps it is something wrong with your styli or preamps....

Anyway, there are times at home I come across low level records and turn up the gain to nearly 100% (+10!), but I am in a recording situation with my master only set to 50% (it's a long story) -- and even then! If I am playing on a system the ideal gain structure is to have the master 75% of the way, faders 100%, and gain either at neutral or +1. In a perfect world your level should be peaking at 0 with that, although it probably won't exactly light up 0 either for various reasons.

The purpose of your peak meter (LEDs) is not so you know when you're distorting your sound, it's usually above the meter's capability in fact. Instead the meter is there so you know where your peak in sound is on that particular source in relation to your other source. Ultimately telling you the dynamics of the music and the general loudness of your tracks. Meters get more detailed towards 0db for the reason of using 0db as your reference point of loudness. Keeping the general loudness of the music consistent is the purpose of mixing.

Which brings me to the channel EQs. Don't ever use positive gain. Not unless you are doing some weird creative shit. If you need a louder signal, use the gains. The reason why EQs are made with more subtractive values than positive ones are becuase you should be bringing in the whole signal minus the parts you don't want, and the EQs are better at subtracting than adding. This leads to a remaining noise that is much more natural sounding.

[Gronchula]

A&H Xone 62s are designed and intended to have their inputs peaked at +6db NOT 0db. Inputs are intended to be 0db average not peak. The main meters are detailed up to +8db due to this design while the channel meters only have 4 LEDS -15db 0db +6db and PK(red) which is +8db. It has +21db Headroom on a channel and +23db headroom master mix. This is simply how it is built and intended to be used for the best sound dynamics from the mixer, it's not a Pioneer or other brand of mixer which may be different.

100% Master is 0db Unity Gain on the mixer.. Perhaps I should run it at 75% as suggested and boost my master slightly while lowering the louder channel's output to keep the mix output even should I need extra volume out of a very low level pressing on the second channel.

At 75% master my master meter will peak at 0db with an input peaking at +6db. Do I not want to be running my master at unity gain then? I was always under the impression that it should be ran at master unity gain, and then use post systems to dictate the level of sound for the room. - I'm asuming this was wrong and my master output level should meter at 0db for a more detailed visual cue to control the master level when mixing multiple channels while individual channel meters should be consistent regardless - Never thought about it this way before!

It could be a preamp issue, because I do remember having to increase my gains about 15-20% more than usual for ALL records regardless of which channel input(or which turntable) to peak at 6db and average at 0db at one point, and it;'s been the same since(EG any record that needed +2db gain suddenly needed +5db gain to peak properly). This was well over a year ago, it struck me as odd, but the mixer still sounds great and I figured it had just broken in a bit. Styluses have been replaced many times since.

It's fairly rare a pressing needs +10 and a boost in EQ to meter as it should, but it does happen in some cases(probably 1 record out of 100) and is annoying but if stop running my master at unity gain and at 0db then monkey around a little with levels - This is a non issue now... Though the possible preamp issue is somewhat disconcerting.

[NPC]

A&H Xone 62s are designed and intended to have their inputs peaked at +6db NOT 0db. Inputs are intended to be 0db average not peak. The main meters are detailed up to +8db due to this design while the channel meters only have 4 LEDS -15db 0db +6db and PK(red) which is +8db. It has +21db Headroom on a channel and +23db headroom master mix. This is simply how it is built and intended to be used for the best sound dynamics from the mixer, it's not a Pioneer or other brand of mixer which may be different.

Yes yes yes. Although it's not "designed" to peak at +6db. If your goal is to maintain average at 0, then your peak may be well above +6db. I actually use -10db as my average. We can pretty much se tit as low as we want if there's pretty much any other hardware involved at all (amp, compressor, ect) and adjust those accordingly.



100% Master is 0db Unity Gain on the mixer.. Perhaps I should run it at 75% as suggested and boost my master slightly while lowering the louder channel's output to keep the mix output even should I need extra volume out of a very low level pressing on the second channel.

At 75% master my master meter will peak at 0db with an input peaking at +6db. Do I not want to be running my master at unity gain then? I was always under the impression that it should be ran at master unity gain, and then use post systems to dictate the level of sound for the room. - I'm asuming this was wrong and my master output level should meter at 0db for a more detailed visual cue to control the master level when mixing multiple channels while individual channel meters should be consistent regardless - Never thought about it this way before!



I think you're getting it now. Unity gain means you risk clipping and you need the extra room while mixing sources.


ALL[/U] records regardless of which channel input(or which turntable) to peak at 6db and average at 0db at one point, and it;'s been the same since(EG any record that needed +2db gain suddenly needed +5db gain to peak properly). This was well over a year ago, it struck me as odd, but the mixer still sounds great and I figured it had just broken in a bit. Styluses have been replaced many times since.

It's fairly rare a pressing needs +10 and a boost in EQ to meter as it should, but it does happen in some cases(probably 1 record out of 100) and is annoying but if stop running my master at unity gain and at 0db then monkey around a little with levels - This is a non issue now... Though the possible preamp issue is somewhat disconcerting.

If the mixer is under warranty I would send it in for a repair. Could be a grounding issue(?) on the whole RCA terminal or just something simple.

[djpenguin]

No, it's not possible to increase the channel gain through replacing a few parts. Doing so would require a redesign of the input gain stage circuitry, and probably a new layout for the main PCB.

Furthermore, it seems like you're obsessing over numbers a bit more than is healthy. I've never used the 62, but the Xone:92 and 22 both have meters that are labelled low (the 0 is moved down to below unity gain, giving the appearance of 6-9dB of headroom past unity before distortion occurs), and it's very possible that the 62 follows similar design conventions. As long as you're getting a clean, non-distorted, and decently hot signal out of the mixer, the main amplifiers will take care of levels for the venue/room. When you're doing studio recordings, having levels close to but not exceeding unity gain is important to achieve the best possible S/N ratio, but it doesn't matter so much in live situations.

Based on your description of noticing a drop in available gain across all channels of your mixer, I'm inclined to think that your mixer has suffered some kind of problem with its power supply. A slight drop in available voltage to the various op-amps could easily result in less total amplification being possible.

[Gronchula]

Yes yes yes. Although it's not "designed" to peak at +6db. If your goal is to maintain average at 0, then your peak may be well above +6db. I actually use -10db as my average. We can pretty much se tit as low as we want if there's pretty much any other hardware involved at all (amp, compressor, ect) and adjust those accordingly.



I think you're getting it now. Unity gain means you risk clipping and you need the extra room while mixing sources.



If the mixer is under warranty I would send it in for a repair. Could be a grounding issue(?) on the whole RCA terminal or just something simple.

I imagine it's out of warranty as it's 3 years old or so now, but I will will send A&H an email about this for some further thought on the loss of level issue.

Up till now, I've always simply lowered the channel fader for the current channel slightly, as I bring in the incomming channel to prevent changes in overall volume and maintain an even mix while keeping the entire mix peaking at +6 aswell(100% master though)... Though it still will not clip untill +23db - My goal has always been to peak at +6db on the meter at the loudest point in any given track as stated to be doing by A&H which is very easy to maintain using a combination of both meters based on the meters configuration. This is honestly the easiest and most accurate way to set peak levels as the large cue/master meter has a +5db and the small channel meter has a +6db making for a very accurate way to set it visually then to tweak further by ear if song/recording dynamics suggest.

The mixer won't distort untill well well past 8db(which I do not hit anyways according to meters)

Regardless, thanks for the insight on this. Changed the way I think about managing my master level, prevented me from reinventing the wheel, aswell as reminded me there could be a physical problem with the mixer! Now to sort that out...

Email to A&H is off.

[Subprime]

Just run at 0 ffs. The reason most DJ mixers have so much headroom is that DJs tend to run them far too hot anyway (run A&H pro kit at +6, the magic smoke will escape pretty quick). If you're coming out at +6 you may well be clipping your amps, which may or may not have stupid headroom. You're not going to experience any significant quality loss by running at 0.

[Jalapeno]

Just run at 0 ffs. The reason most DJ mixers have so much headroom is that DJs tend to run them far too hot anyway (run A&H pro kit at +6, the magic smoke will escape pretty quick). If you're coming out at +6 you may well be clipping your amps, which may or may not have stupid headroom. You're not going to experience any significant quality loss by running at 0.

do you honestly think clipping an input will burn up a thousand dollar mixer?

really?

(hint: it wont)

[DTR]

do you honestly think clipping an input will burn up a thousand dollar mixer?

really?

(hint: it wont)

Perhaps he meant magic smoke from the speaker due to clipping the amp's input stage?

[DJ STU-C]

ive never bought a record that is pressed with so little sound that i need to max the gains out, is it a bootleg or something?? the closest i came was when i bought the vinyl sampler to todd terrys ministry of sound sessions cd. it was more of a hifi record than a dj one and required the gains up fairly high, but it was nowhere near the top. i seem to remember the master gain being at about the 2 oclock position with the high at 1, the mid and bass at about 2. that was on a pioneer mixer so cant speak for the a&h but im sure its not that different

[Marc S]

only time i did need to max my gains was using a 12" copy of Now thats what i call music 2, it had an 80's track i wanted to throw into a set and when you use vinyl with 10 tracks on each side next to a modern 12" single, the volume difference is vast.

[TeLLy]

only time i did need to max my gains was using a 12" copy of Now thats what i call music 2, it had an 80's track i wanted to throw into a set and when you use vinyl with 10 tracks on each side next to a modern 12" single, the volume difference is vast.

I believe I have that same record. Many of my older LPs have a lot of tracks crammed into them and you need to really crank the gain, most especially on these compilations like by K-Tel and whatnot. With the autogain feature found on DVSs nowadays it's pretty easy to forget about gains when putting a "real" record on.

[punky]

Yeah, you should NEVER have to max your gains and max your outputs. In six years of doing this shit, I've never had to come even CLOSE to that. Some digital mixers are designed to have your master at 3 o'clock (Pioneer and Korgs are like this) but you should NEVER have to max shit out like that. Turn your amp up if you're not getting enough volume.

EDIT: Sorry, that came out snarkier than I meant it. It's been a long week of stress for me. Just turn your amps up, and you'll be fine. If your amp are already up pretty high, then yeah, your mixer might be borked.

[Synergy]

I have to crank the gains on my xone as well depending on the record to achieve 0db on all my mixes. It is quite annoying. IDK what else to do. Maybe I could shoot for -3db and hit my peaks at 0db?