Looking for best setup advice with available equipment

[fiyawerx]

Hi everyone. First, I just want to say that even though I had thought that I had done enough research to get started, I wish I had found these forums sooner. Although, hindsight is always 20/20, and here we are. I recently came into a fairly regular bar type gig, playing mostly various types of house/dubstep/club music for a smallish crowd in a "back room" type of bar, maybe 50-60 people tops. I was using a friends old setup, but the sound was really lacking, and I got the OK from the SO to go ahead and get my own setup, since this may lead into more work / parties, etc... first a little background so you can let me know any mistakes I've made in thinking so far.

Usually, there can be from 10-20 people dancing at any given time anywhere between 5 and 15' or so from my setup.

My first attempt at a setup consisted of a QSC GX7 amp, and 2 ELX115's, sourced from a Numark Mixdeck that I've had for some time now from a previous job. The sound was so/so, but I knew I needed some more low power, especially with the type of music and people dancing, you need some bass, and the 115 highs seemed really overpowering in that small space at the point where you'd start getting decent mids/lows. Due to various reasons and possibly not enough information on my part, I ended up buying a JBL JRX-118 passive sub from a local guitar center. I switched the GX7 over to internal crossover mode, and split the channels between the JBL and the 2 EV's chained off of the second channel. The sound was "ok" but I still really felt like I was missing something with it, and wasn't too happy. I also noticed that after a few hours (not really pushing anything that hard) I would smell a burning smell, but couldn't narrow down where it came from. After googling the various components in my setup, I had thought it was coming from the qsc amp, so arranged a return, and went back to GC and picked up two Crown amps (XLS1500 and XLS1000), to try having a separate amp for tops and for the sub. These amps have a built in adjustable HPF/LPF, so I figured I could get a more balanced sound if I was more able to control the crossover/filters. After speaking with the GC rep and even Crown support about my setup, I was going to run both amps in bridged mono, with their respective filters set near suggested levels, and try that out. After running a night with this setup, I felt like I was still overpowering the highs from the tops at the volume levels that were comfortable, so back to GC I went, this time coming away with a DBX 215s equalizer. With this, I feel like I was finally able to get a well rounded sound out of the ELX's, but now last night, the burning smell came back. And now I'm paranoid that I'm doing something really wrong. I don't have anyone local I can really discuss this setup with, so I'm looking for some knowledge, advice, criticisms for wrong ideas, whatever. I can't buy any new/more equipment (Unless I sold some first) although as I haven't returned the GX7 yet, I do have an extra amp to try to work out the best solution with.

Burning smell aside, here's what I have to work with:

QSC GX7 ( http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/gx/specifications.php )
1 Crown XLS1500, 1 Crown XLS1000 ( http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xls_drivecore.htm )
2 EV ELX115 - ( Power handling: 400 W continuous, 1600 W peak , http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=1072 )
1 JBL JRX118S - ( Recommended Amplifier Power : 350 W to 700 W into 4 ohms, http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=89&MId=3 )
1 DBX 215s EQ ( http://www.dbxpro.com/215s/ )

Source is a Numark Mixdeck - ( Output options here - http://www.numark.com/product/mixdeck#specs )

I would really appreciate any suggestions/advice on achieving as close to an optimal setup as I can get with this equipment.

[fiyawerx]

As a second question, it's possible I could return the JBL sub.. I was looking at it compared to the ELX118, which seems like it would be a better fit to compliment the 115's, but could use some thoughts on that too. Not sure exactly how much it would be worth it trying to get it returned and picking up another sub somewhere else ~500-600 (max) range.

[windspeed36]

First - see how much you can ditch the EV's and the JBL's for. See how much money you have to work with to get a decent setup. Id actually see how much ditching everything apart from the EQ can get me then have a look at a pair of powered tops and adding a sub down the road. A pair of RCF312A's retail for between $800-$1K or a pair of JBL PRX612/615M's retail for about the same. Both are really good sounding active speakers that will knock the socks of your current setup.

[fiyawerx]

First - see how much you can ditch the EV's and the JBL's for. See how much money you have to work with to get a decent setup. Id actually see how much ditching everything apart from the EQ can get me then have a look at a pair of powered tops and adding a sub down the road. A pair of RCF312A's retail for between $800-$1K or a pair of JBL PRX612/615M's retail for about the same. Both are really good sounding active speakers that will knock the socks of your current setup.

Unfortunately, considering everything is brand new within 2 months or so, the amount I'd lose in swapping everything out I doubt I'd still be able to come up with a decent enough system without having to then add some more $$, which the wife would never allow. I do regret not coming here first, and can look at switching things out as I make some more money to make up for the losses, and plan to stick around here to learn what I can in the meantime.

As for what I -do- have, any suggestion's on making the best of my situation? It's definitely enough power for at least the smaller place I'm in now, I just don't want to be missing something with how everything is set up, or maybe not utilizing something the best way I can be.

[windspeed36]

You clearly don't have a lot in terms of funds so my other solution:

1. Sell the JRX sub
2. Buy 2 MRX518 which are around $450 at musicians friend - run them of the XLS1500
3. Get yourself an external external crossover: DBX233XL (get the XL - over the normal, the normal only has 1/4" jacks not XLR)
4. Sell the XLS1000.....

[disbjohn]

You clearly don't have a lot in terms of funds so my other solution:

1. Sell the JRX sub
2. Buy 2 MRX518 which are around $450 at musicians friend - run them of the XLS1500
3. Get yourself an external external crossover: DBX233XL (get the XL - over the normal, the normal only has 1/4" jacks not XLR)
4. Sell the XLS1000.....

He has passive ELX115's so will need an amp to push that

[windspeed36]

He has passive ELX115's so will need an amp to push that

If you read his original post, he said he already has a Crown XLS1500, XLS1000 and a QSC GX7 - use the GX7 for his tops.

[disbjohn]

If you read his original post, he said he already has a Crown XLS1500, XLS1000 and a QSC GX7 - use the GX7 for his tops.

Doh! :facepalm:

[fiyawerx]

You clearly don't have a lot in terms of funds so my other solution:

1. Sell the JRX sub
2. Buy 2 MRX518 which are around $450 at musicians friend - run them of the XLS1500
3. Get yourself an external external crossover: DBX233XL (get the XL - over the normal, the normal only has 1/4" jacks not XLR)
4. Sell the XLS1000.....

I do believe I'm still within the return period on the XLS1000, restock fee might be less than the hit I'd take selling it, so going to take that back.

I might be able to get them to take the JRX back, and I see that the rating on the MRX is 500 W / 1000 W / 2000 Peak W, I think I could just about come out with a wash and a MRX518... but only one for now. If that's the case, should I run one MRX518 from the XLS1500 in Bridge Mono? It seems like my options would either be 525W if run from a single channel, or 1550W run in bridged mono.. any thoughts?

[windspeed36]

You can bridge it mono but I wouldn't, there wouldn't be much point.. You'd be using tripple the continuous power

[jayhwk]

I think you've gotten yourself into a hole where none of your amps match your speakers. People who sell amplifiers will tell you that you need 2x the continuous rating because bigger amps make them more money, but I don't think that's a good idea for beginning users (as you have found out with your burning smell).

Here's a good document from EV about how to power speakers: (PDF Warning) http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?i=2320

I'll go through component by component:

The JBL JRX series are some of the worst speakers known to man. They're 350W speakers, and I wouldn't power them with more than that. I suspect the burning smell is coming from them. I would get rid of it and look at other subs -the EV TourX single 18 is on par with the JBL MRX listed abovet and then you'd be matching manufacturers. If you do keep the JRX, I'd use the XLS1500 on it.

The ELX115 is a 400W speaker. The GX7 is 700W at 8 Ohms. It is a bit much for your ELX115s (per EV's recommendation, I wouldn't use more than 1.5x continuous), but you should be OK if you are careful to avoid things like clipping your mixer or amplifier, dropping a microphone, or excessive feedback.

Can you return the XLS amps? The 1000 is only 215W and the 1500 is 300W.

Ideally, I'd get rid of the XLS amps and the JRX118 and buy a pair of EV TourX 118s and a QSC GX5. Use the GX5s for the ELX115s and the GX7 for the subs.

[fiyawerx]

I think you've gotten yourself into a hole where none of your amps match your speakers. People who sell amplifiers will tell you that you need 2x the continuous rating because bigger amps make them more money, but I don't think that's a good idea for beginning users (as you have found out with your burning smell).

Here's a good document from EV about how to power speakers: (PDF Warning) http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?i=2320

I'll go through component by component:

The JBL JRX series are some of the worst speakers known to man. They're 350W speakers, and I wouldn't power them with more than that. I suspect the burning smell is coming from them. I would get rid of it and look at other subs -the EV TourX single 18 is on par with the JBL MRX listed abovet and then you'd be matching manufacturers. If you do keep the JRX, I'd use the XLS1500 on it.

The ELX115 is a 400W speaker. The GX7 is 700W at 8 Ohms. It is a bit much for your ELX115s (per EV's recommendation, I wouldn't use more than 1.5x continuous), but you should be OK if you are careful to avoid things like clipping your mixer or amplifier, dropping a microphone, or excessive feedback.

Can you return the XLS amps? The 1000 is only 215W and the 1500 is 300W.

Ideally, I'd get rid of the XLS amps and the JRX118 and buy a pair of EV TourX 118s and a QSC GX5. Use the GX5s for the ELX115s and the GX7 for the subs.

Yeah, I'm seeing that a bit more now. I went back to GC, and was able to return the JRX for an MRX that they had in stock, and also returned the xls1000. This weekend, everything went well, no burning smells at all, but I was also probably getting more of the expected bass that I should have been, which to me just wasn't quite as much as I like. The GX7 on the EV's is definitely overkill for this venue, even with the EQ balancing it out, as I barely needed any gain on the amp (and no clipping on the mixer either) for it to sound plenty loud compared to the bass. I felt almost like I couldn't push the sub enough to be happy with the xls1500, even with the gain up almost all the way, without clipping the mixer. The amp was also not near clipping according to the signal lights.

The MRX is 4 Ohms, which would be getting 525w according to the xls spec sheet. Maybe I'm expecting too much overall from what I have as well. I know the guitar center guys are probably getting sick of all my returns, but so far they didn't charge me any restocking fees and have been really decent to work with, so I'm trying to also work with what's available.

I still have the XLS1500 which I think I may be able to still return, not too sure if I'm past my date on that one now.

What about running the GX7 with it's internal crossover on (100hz I believe)? That would be pushing 1000 to the sub and 1000 to the speakers (which would get 500 each if I'm correct?) If that works, I know I'll have to be careful with the signals to the sub still, but I could possibly return the xls1500 and get a real crossover and stick with these three speakers? So I'd end up with the GX7, the DBX 215s to help me balance the tops a bit, the two ev's and then the mrx 518?

If I can get a bit more out of the 518 I think I'd be ok, although for any bigger spots I know I'd want a second one, which I couldn't do with the GX7 as it'll only do 4 ohms and not 2, so if I expanded I'd be back to needing a second amp in the future.

[BillESC]

Why not go active speakers? So much simplier. I run a KV2 system for 95% of my jobs, a pair of 10" 2-ways and a dual 12" subwoofer. The rig is good up to 300 without breaking a sweat. Then again, it costs over 6K.

[fiyawerx]

Why not go active speakers? So much simplier. I run a KV2 system for 95% of my jobs, a pair of 10" 2-ways and a dual 12" subwoofer. The rig is good up to 300 without breaking a sweat. Then again, it costs over 6K.

Because at this point, I'm mostly stuck with what I have with the exception of the one or two items that still may be returnable. Even if I did "sell everything" to start over, I think I'd take a big enough hit that I wouldn't be able to even buy another comparable set. I'm close to where I want to be for now, just trying for some refinement really. I can look at upgrading and replacing as time goes by and money comes in, if I even find myself in a position where I think I need to.

[djscrizzle]

Because at this point, I'm mostly stuck with what I have with the exception of the one or two items that still may be returnable. Even if I did "sell everything" to start over, I think I'd take a big enough hit that I wouldn't be able to even buy another comparable set. I'm close to where I want to be for now, just trying for some refinement really. I can look at upgrading and replacing as time goes by and money comes in, if I even find myself in a position where I think I need to.

I'd go 100% active speakers for a B-rig, to take to small shows and to use as a wedding ceremony system or for solely spoken word sound reinforcement.

[jayhwk]

Yeah, I'm seeing that a bit more now. I went back to GC, and was able to return the JRX for an MRX that they had in stock, and also returned the xls1000. This weekend, everything went well, no burning smells at all, but I was also probably getting more of the expected bass that I should have been, which to me just wasn't quite as much as I like. The GX7 on the EV's is definitely overkill for this venue, even with the EQ balancing it out, as I barely needed any gain on the amp (and no clipping on the mixer either) for it to sound plenty loud compared to the bass. I felt almost like I couldn't push the sub enough to be happy with the xls1500, even with the gain up almost all the way, without clipping the mixer. The amp was also not near clipping according to the signal lights.

The MRX is 4 Ohms, which would be getting 525w according to the xls spec sheet. Maybe I'm expecting too much overall from what I have as well. I know the guitar center guys are probably getting sick of all my returns, but so far they didn't charge me any restocking fees and have been really decent to work with, so I'm trying to also work with what's available.

I still have the XLS1500 which I think I may be able to still return, not too sure if I'm past my date on that one now.

What about running the GX7 with it's internal crossover on (100hz I believe)? That would be pushing 1000 to the sub and 1000 to the speakers (which would get 500 each if I'm correct?) If that works, I know I'll have to be careful with the signals to the sub still, but I could possibly return the xls1500 and get a real crossover and stick with these three speakers? So I'd end up with the GX7, the DBX 215s to help me balance the tops a bit, the two ev's and then the mrx 518?

If I can get a bit more out of the 518 I think I'd be ok, although for any bigger spots I know I'd want a second one, which I couldn't do with the GX7 as it'll only do 4 ohms and not 2, so if I expanded I'd be back to needing a second amp in the future.

That sounds like a plan if you're OK running in mono (which isn't a big deal- in a traditional set-up not very much of the audience benefits from stereo, anyway). It sounds like you might have a gain structure issue if you're clipping your mixer with headroom left in the amp. The EQ should also help with the sound, but be careful not to boost the lows too much or you might burn up the sub! You can always turn down the tops, which would make the sound stronger.

[DjAaron]

I would try upping the gain on the mixer a little at a time but adjust the GX7 on the tops down a little so it's not overkill and see how the XLS pushes the sub with the gain where it's at now. I had to do that when I had a passive system before. My sub was plenty powerful but I had to adjust all the gains on everything to get it just right. Most of the time on my mixer I would be around 3/4 the up on the fader and it was plenty loud for the gigs I did and I still had more headroom if I wanted to. Basically when my mixer was peaking (most of the time) my amps would be doing the same or just a tad earlier.

I am no pro but that's just from my experience with the system I had.

[fiyawerx]

I would try upping the gain on the mixer a little at a time but adjust the GX7 on the tops down a little so it's not overkill and see how the XLS pushes the sub with the gain where it's at now. I had to do that when I had a passive system before. My sub was plenty powerful but I had to adjust all the gains on everything to get it just right. Most of the time on my mixer I would be around 3/4 the up on the fader and it was plenty loud for the gigs I did and I still had more headroom if I wanted to. Basically when my mixer was peaking (most of the time) my amps would be doing the same or just a tad earlier.

I am no pro but that's just from my experience with the system I had.

Thanks everyone, I'll give the entire setup another shot and research some on gain structure before this weekend, will see how it goes again. If I still have issues maybe will give the gx7 a shot at it the following. Going to try some variations on speaker placements too and see if I can get an even fuller sound.