Shoioutout on 12" powered cabs

[electricsmooth]

I found an interesting article comparing the various 12" powered speakers out there. I'm sure many of you have seen it but for those of you who haven't, here it is:

http://www.peachstateaudio.com/downloads/PAPSSO.pdf

[ampnation]

Yes, I've seen that before. I would have loved to seem more models included but that's still quite a few. Not too many suprises.

I think a more helpful shootout would the the 12" + sub combo because that's what we use.

QSC KW122 + KW181
JBL PRX612M + PRX618S-XLF
EV ELX112P + ELX118P
Mackie SRM450V2 + SRM1801
Yamaha DSR112 + DSR118W
QSC K12 + KW181
Peavey Impulse 12D + PV118
Mackie HD1221 + HD1801


I know QSC would say the proper matchup for the K12 is the KSub, but really I think more people use the KW181 with the K12's than the KSubs for good reason.

Some obvious omissions were the RCF ART312A and something from Behringer, Yorkville, Community, d&b Tech and maybe some of the up and coming value brands like Samson. Since this was done by a retail store, obviously they are only going to include brands they sell.

[electricsmooth]

I was hoping they would have yorkville as well given that it is the most common brand in these parts. I was going with Als (Poulin) advice and get 4x10" speakers but Id rather not be carrying around that much stuff. I think I'll try a pair of 12s and maybe later if I find they lack in bigger venues, I'll grab a second pair. The shootout worked for me because the qscs and jbls were my main considerations. The price difference has put the jbls as the front runners. I can grab demo units off eBay for around $600. I'm going to hear them side by side tomorrow at the local music shop

[Evil Steve]

It's too bad they didn't use any of the loudspeaker's onboard processing.
That's one of the main reasons I'd buy a powered speaker. It's also one of the reasons that some powered speakers are more expensive than others. That processing (money) is wasted if it's not used.
Nevertheless, it's a start.
If you're looking to buy one of the speakers in the "top three" of that list, it can rationalize your decision...

[Incognito]

It's too bad they didn't use any of the loudspeaker's onboard processing.
That's one of the main reasons I'd buy a powered speaker. It's also one of the reasons that some powered speakers are more expensive than others. That processing (money) is wasted if it's not used.
Nevertheless, it's a start.
If you're looking to buy one of the speakers in the "top three" of that list, it can rationalize your decision...
They did use the built in processing, what they didn't use was the optional processing that adds artificial processing such as bass boost. What this does is make sure all the speakers in question are in as equal playing field possible without the introduction of a 3rd party dedicated DSP, it is commmon in most speaker shoot outs to try & have a repeatable performance by all speakers with not performance boost given to one above the others in the comparison.

[Evil Steve]

They did use the built in processing, what they didn't use was the optional processing that adds artificial processing such as bass boost. What this does is make sure all the speakers in question are in as equal playing field possible without the introduction of a 3rd party dedicated DSP, it is commmon in most speaker shoot outs to try & have a repeatable performance by all speakers with not performance boost given to one above the others in the comparison.

If I pay for a performance boost, why can't I use it? If the processing is on the loudspeaker, then it's not "third party".
I know it's not common in most speaker shoot outs. That's why speaker shoot outs like the one linked are such bullshit.
"We're going to have a competition, but to keep it "fair" we're going to cripple some of the contestants before we begin".
If you're trying to rationalize purchasing a product, and a shoot out is the best way to rationalize it, then, by all means, rationalize away. It doesn't make the shoot out less bogus. As long as it makes someone feel good...

It's a start. That's all

[Incognito]

If I pay for a performance boost, why can't I use it? If the processing is on the loudspeaker, then it's not "third party".
I know it's not common in most speaker shoot outs. That's why speaker shoot outs like the one linked are such bullshit.
"We're going to have a competition, but to keep it "fair" we're going to cripple some of the contestants before we begin".
If you're trying to rationalize purchasing a product, and a shoot out is the best way to rationalize it, then, by all means, rationalize away. It doesn't make the shoot out less bogus. As long as it makes someone feel good...

It's a start. That's all

No one said you can't use it, pay attention how speaker shootouts are done & you'll find that they try to get them all on as equal playing field as possible. This is not an uncommon pratice & makes it so you can see what the actual speakers are doing, it's not crippling the speaker, it's having it play in it's natural state as with all other speakers in the comparison. Also keep in mind that the speaker that came in the number one spot was a speaker that had it's bonus features turned off as well so really it's a mute point.

[ampnation]

What I REALLY wish is, that the mfg's would list specs for with and without x processing engaged. e.g. QSC K Series DEEP mode. What is the frequency range with it engaged and without it engaged? How does it affect the continuous max SPL figure? And yes, it would be fun to have a more comprehensive shootout where each speakers' possible processing combinations were considered separately. Ideally this would be done in a way that the K12 without DEEP was presented as a separate speaker from K12 with DEEP, randomly mixed into the mix. I imagine this could drastically increase the time involved to conduct the shootout Also, one thing shootouts don't really cover is how the speakers fare after a few hours of usage. How much does power compression set in limiting your effective volume?

[Evil Steve]

This is not an uncommon pratice & makes it so you can see what the actual speakers are doing,
it's not crippling the speaker, it's having it play in it's natural state as with all other speakers in the comparison.

"This is not an uncommon practice..." Agreed. Hence, speaker shootouts like this are bullshit.
"it's not crippling the speaker..." It is crippling the speaker. If the available enhancements are not being used, you are not allowing the product to work to its best advantage.
If the enhancements were just a waste of time, then the manufacturers wouldn't spend the money to put them on.
These enhancements allow the user to make compromises to attain the final performance of a tool.
If you don't take the available features of a product into consideration when evaluating them, then the evaluation is bullshit.
When you look at some of the highest price, highest quality PA systems out there, you see that they are processed to a huge degree. If you took the processing and enhancing circuitry out of those systems, then tried to compare the systems, then just like this shootout, the comparison would be complete bullshit.

I don't take issue with how "fair" this comparison is. I understand what they're trying to do. I take issue with a person believing that a shootout style of comparison is in any way representative of objective value, or of quality.

In the end, it's the sound that hits your customer's ear that's important. Whether you do it through high quality components, high quality cabinetry, or high quality processing, doesn't matter. The only important result is the end result. That's why comparisons like these shootouts are totally bogus.

Amp makes a good point. I could wonder why manufacturers don't publish some form of information regarding the performance compromises that are required to accommodate the enhancing circuitry. The reason why I don't wonder, is because I know that if the manufacturers told the true story of their enhancements, they would scare off prospective customers. The manufacturers are completely silent on this for good reason.


As I've said, the results of a shootout is a start. It's not a particularly good start. The only thing these results are good for, is to make someone feel good about a purchase they've already made, or are just about to make. Other than that... I call Bullshit.

[electricsmooth]

Dude, you're scaring me.

I really don't care about the speakers internal processing capabilities because I'll be using them with my driverack. All I care is that they have a line in and a line out. Fora mic, I'll be using my mixer. I'll also be turning off off any internal speaker EQing.

So.....should I not get the JBLs?

[windspeed36]

Dude, you're scaring me.

I really don't care about the speakers internal processing capabilities because I'll be using them with my driverack. All I care is that they have a line in and a line out. Fora mic, I'll be using my mixer. I'll also be turning off off any internal speaker EQing.

So.....should I not get the JBLs?
Either the PRX's, K12's or RCF312A's...

[Incognito]

Extra bells & whistles have been added to all kinds of products, the more bells & whistles the better the marketing for that product is & thus the reason why certain bells & whistles are present in the first place. Most found in these speakers are nothing more then a EQ boost here with a cut there, something you can do anyway, only a few actually take time to take their bells & whistles to the actual DSP level such as the new Yamaha DXR series. With that said, most powered speakers have compromised on board processing anyway & a dedicated DSP would yield better results then both the on board processing & bells & whistles combined (in most cases). Another thing to consider as Amp questioned, most of the bells & whistles come at a cost by way of taking a hit in either SPL or sound quality (when pushed to the upper SPL the more bloated the signal the greater the chance of higher distortion levels & running out of headroom). If you don't require the full SPL of the speaker then those bells & whistles can come in handy but aren't a deal breaker & like I stated earlier the speaker that came in first had it's bells & whistles turned off just like all the others.

Having a feature such as EQ, bass boost engaged on a powered speaker isn't a good idea anyway since the dynamics of music changes from song to song. You don't want to be constantly making trips to the rear of the speaker to make adjustments or having to guess how to counter it's effects on the fly from the mixing board so it's best to just leave your powered speakers flat & do your adjustments from mixing point.

All that said, the bells & whistles on these powered speakers only add low contour & high end sizzle to the mix so really that is only but two points of what was being compared in this shootout so I doubt that alone would of been a huge game changer in the final results. Actually those very bells & whistle would hinder the speaker on other parts of the comparison with an increased chance of feedback, potential to adding boominess to the male voice & a potentil hit to the over all performance at higher SPL.

What was compared here was the following:

*low frequency response,
*high frequency response
*female intelligibility
*male intelligibility
*gain before feedback
*woofer to horn transition
*vocal accuracy with a live microphone
*and overall musicality

The only powered speaker I know that has active tracking processing is the Yamaha DXR series so only it would benefit from it's bells & whistles in more then two of these tests.

All & all I get your point & it could of been resolved by having a double listening test with & without the processing on.

[Al Poulin]

I'm really surpised at the ranking for the Mackie 450. :eek: I've only heard the V1s, and they are good speakers BUT I think overall the Yamaha DSR 112 is a better sounding and performing speaker. They should have also compared maximum output AND sound quality once the speaker gets closer to maximum output. That would have given certain speakers (like the DSRs) a better overall score I'm sure...

Al

[Kapetol T]

It would have been nice if they took some actual measurements of the speakers as well. By the looks of it, I'm guessing very few of the participants could hear much over 6-10kHz...

Also, the overall 1-10 score seems fairly trivial; the least they could have done is provide a breakdown of each speaker's score in the 8 categories.

[ampnation]

Thinking about it, I think the real purpose of the shootout was to demonstrate that the most expensive speaker was actually worth the extra, thus stimulating sales... mom always said, follow the money.