Beat Matching Question

[BurntToast]

When two songs are not in sync but are at the same tempo, it can be kind of difficult to tell exactly which song is ahead and which is behind (for me at least... i have no experience). To me, it just sound cluttered and clearly off. Do you guys consider it "cheating" to use the level meters on the mixer as a visual aid to get them in sync? Is there a better way to do it?

[miX_]

I don't see how you could consider that cheating, although not really optimal imo. I just use my ears. Once you learn the tracks a little bit and get used to beatmatching you'll be able to get a handle on it. Try pulling one track ahead, see if it's better or worse. If it's better, keep going with it until it matches up. If it makes it worse, just pull it in the opposite direction until you get the desired result. :tup:

[Finnish_Fox]

Take off your headphones and play around with 'em. I learned real quick which one to adjust.

[Rek_Aviles]

it gets easier as you get the hang of it, soon becoming second nature allowing you to notice if you have to speed up or slow down.

Try this, if the beats are similar, try zoning in on a specific element of the incomin track and try to get that in tempo with the other track. Instead of only listening for the kick, focus on the hi hats. Not sure if makes sense to you, but Its all about trainning your ears.

[nolimitz]

What equipment is giving you the bpm readout? Not everything is perfect. Especially on the pitch altered track. The best bpm counter you can trust are your ears. If the bpm counter shows to the whole number, i.e - 125bpm, then its not realiable.

Decimal readouts are more accurate cuz trust me, there is a difference between 125.14bpm and 125.54 bpm. That half of a beat difference can and will cause the songs to drift. Remeber, your ears are the best tool. If they are the same bpm but still are "out of sync", nudge that platter. With time your ears will be trained to hear the track ahead/behind.

[miX_]

... there is a difference between 125.14bpm and 125.54 bpm. That half of a beat difference can and will cause the songs to drift ...

What kind of an asshole makes a song at 125.54 BPM?

[nolimitz]

What kind of an asshole makes a song at 125.54 BPM?

If a song is pitched up or down it wouldnt be an even whole number...would it?

[Andrew B]

What kind of an asshole makes a song at 125.54 BPM?

Lots. Why is that an asshole thing to do?

[BurntToast]

Right now, I'm just using Virtual DJ while I wait for my gear to arrive... so I haven't even tried it with headphones. The other half of the problem is that I'm using my laptop's trackpad to "adjust" the track, which isn't realistic at all. Just thought I would try a free software to get some concepts down, but damn is it hard to not look at that visual aids on there. Hopefully, once the gear arrives, it'll make a lot more sense. Thanks for all of your input.

[nolimitz]

Right now, I'm just using Virtual DJ while I wait for my gear to arrive... so I haven't even tried it with headphones. The other half of the problem is that I'm using my laptop's trackpad to "adjust" the track, which isn't realistic at all. Just thought I would try a free software to get some concepts down, but damn is it hard to not look at that visual aids on there. Hopefully, once the gear arrives, it'll make a lot more sense. Thanks for all of your input.

Visual aids are the devil. I use or rather used to use VDJ too. I can tell u first hand that those beat markers are wrong and so is the bpm readout. I usually tap my songs when I prepare. But yea those boxes are wrong half (read:most) of the time.

Do not rely on visual aids either, they are so inaccurate. Your ears man, your ears will show u the way. The best thing for you to do is to tap out the songs, which you can do by right clicking around the bpm area and select beat tap and click the tap box to the beat of the song. Do it for about a minute and u'll get the real bpm of the song. If you know how to count beats then it should be easy.

If you have any problems with that I'll throw on VDJ and i'll double check it for you.

[silentsounds]

The method I use is mentioned above.

Either speed up one track a bit or slow one down and see if it gets better. As you get more practice in, realizing the differences becomes easier, as does the ability to nudge tracks forward and backwards until they are in sync. You can also use your pitch faders to accomplish this as well. It's called pitch riding, if I'm not mistaken.

[nolimitz]

In my opinion pitch riding can get a bit confusing for a beginner. I tried it and i got no where lol. But once you can train your ears to distinguish between each track then you can pitch ride. Oh and a tip to the OP, in order to have a "tighter" beat match, make sure you set vdj to 6% or 8% pitch variation.

Make sure you are using tracks that are no more than a 5bpm difference.

Anything more than what i mentioned above will a. be harder for you and b. sound worse as you go higher.

[silentsounds]

Well, it's ultimately the same concept. Sometimes, the difference in bpm or track position sees little to no effect when nudging up or down. As such, some level of pitch riding is required to get the tracks back in sync. (Unless one wishes to stop the incoming track and drop it again)

[DJ Matt]

When two songs are not in sync but are at the same tempo, it can be kind of difficult to tell exactly which song is ahead and which is behind (for me at least... i have no experience). To me, it just sound cluttered and clearly off. Do you guys consider it "cheating" to use the level meters on the mixer as a visual aid to get them in sync? Is there a better way to do it?

my question is why are you allowing them to play if they are not in sync?


assuming song A is playing through your sound system, and song B is in the heaphones, then what you should be doing is to find a beat to start on in song B, and pressing play on it IN SYNC with the other song.

if you press the button a little late or early then you will have to + or - it slightly,

but you should listen to song B in one side of your heaphones and song A in the other side , this way you should be able to tell, otherwise soon as you nudge it you will know if it went the wrong way or not..

i dont think a visual aid would be any more useful than your own ears to be honest, so for that reason i would suggest you avoid it.

[moyo wilde]

my advice is ride the pitch i sometimes have that problem getting everything locked, slight perfectionist (sloppy slip cuer). the best way is to move the pitch a wee little bit. if it gets worse you know you went in the wrong direction and need to go the other way. don't jerk it forward though, well if you were way off you are going to need to move more but at least you know you are going the right way.

[sense]

When two songs are not in sync but are at the same tempo, it can be kind of difficult to tell exactly which song is ahead and which is behind (for me at least... i have no experience). To me, it just sound cluttered and clearly off. Do you guys consider it "cheating" to use the level meters on the mixer as a visual aid to get them in sync? Is there a better way to do it?
if you cant distinguish which is ahead or behind try re-cueing it. drop the track back in again on beat and listen. getting a good head nod or foot tap to the live track, will also help you with getting the beats in sync.

[BurntToast]

my question is why are you allowing them to play if they are not in sync?


assuming song A is playing through your sound system, and song B is in the heaphones, then what you should be doing is to find a beat to start on in song B, and pressing play on it IN SYNC with the other song.

if you press the button a little late or early then you will have to + or - it slightly,

but you should listen to song B in one side of your heaphones and song A in the other side , this way you should be able to tell, otherwise soon as you nudge it you will know if it went the wrong way or not..

i dont think a visual aid would be any more useful than your own ears to be honest, so for that reason i would suggest you avoid it.

Earlier I mentioned that I'm strictly using VDJ on my MacBook Pro right now and no other equipment at all. I have two songs coming out of the same speaker. I'm not doing this for the purpose of "DJing", so to speak, but to practice some of the concepts before my CDJs and mixer arrive.

Another question I have relating to the bpm... say one song is 128 bpm and the other is slightly different, like 128.25. They'd sound in sync at first, but eventually drift apart. How can you know for sure that the two songs are perfectly sync'd up, or can I prevent that from happening with the CDJ features?

[DJ Jbomb]

I can tell you also that depending on what software you use can tell you how to match the beats, for ex. VDJ doesn't exactly have the greatest features for beat matching, Serato has bars and waves that allow you to watch the grids and waves that if the beats match up the waves will be in sync together and touch each other at certain part of the songs like beats.. No matter if your grid doesn't line up I always watch the waves. I never trust to bpms and the grids.. I always find myself editing my grids and bpm's...

[nolimitz]

Earlier I mentioned that I'm strictly using VDJ on my MacBook Pro right now and no other equipment at all. I have two songs coming out of the same speaker. I'm not doing this for the purpose of "DJing", so to speak, but to practice some of the concepts before my CDJs and mixer arrive.

Another question I have relating to the bpm... say one song is 128 bpm and the other is slightly different, like 128.25. They'd sound in sync at first, but eventually drift apart. How can you know for sure that the two songs are perfectly sync'd up, or can I prevent that from happening with the CDJ features?

In that case, you have to keep using the nudge feature. Thats how it is in the actual world of dj'ing. The two songs wont be a perfect sync. Its part of the skills you need to learn. Nudging them little by little to keep them in sync. Since you have no equipment, assign the pitch bend + and pitch bend - to keys on the keyboard so you can press the corresponding button.

What % do you have your pitch control set to within the software? use +/- 6%. Go through all the tabs in the options window to find this, i forgot which tab it was exactly. But yea, the drifting is normal, its supposed to happen lol.

Now you mentioned that you have both songs playing out of the speakers at the same time, do you use the cross fader or volume faders to control which song is playing? remember ,you can pretty much assign all the features of VDJ to your keyboard and/or use your mouse to adjust everything.

[Mahatma Coat]

Getting an idea of which track is out by looking at your levels is fine, but I wouldn't imagine it helping all that much.

I listen to the kicks and the snares, you can know which track is out by thinking about the differences in time between the thump of the kick, and the 'ffsht' of the snare or cymbal. Just concentrating on one or the other alone can make it difficult to know which track is drifting, listening to both means you have it in a split second.

The record I adjust is either the one lower down in the mix, i.e. the one likely to be less noticed by the audience, or the record which is mostly drums; speeding up or slowing down records with melodies, such as synth lines, pitch bends the melody and usually sounds pretty bad.

I really wouldn't be relying on beat counters when you have your ears, you're just storing up problems for yourself in the long run.

Ultimately you just need to practise man, and from the replies to this post you can see there's many ways to do it, just depends on what works for you.

[BurntToast]

Now you mentioned that you have both songs playing out of the speakers at the same time, do you use the cross fader or volume faders to control which song is playing? remember ,you can pretty much assign all the features of VDJ to your keyboard and/or use your mouse to adjust everything.

I've been using both the cross faders and volume faders. I'm not all that familiar with the software and probably won't invest much time in it since I'll have gear soon.

[DJ Matt]

I have two songs coming out of the same speaker

ok ,well then this is exactly why it sounds cluttered, case closed

i dont see any reason why a DJ would have two out-of-sync songs playing at the same time through one speaker


I'm not doing this for the purpose of "DJing", so to speak?
ummm... you mean you are just practising?

so, im sure many people will use visual aid of the computer screen or the VU metres when messing around at home, but lets put it this way, the people on the dancefloor are not dancing to a visual aid, they are dancing to sound, so sound is the ONLY reference you can rely on.

sometimes the visual peaks are not a perfect representation of where the beat is anyway


I'm strictly using VDJ on my MacBook?
so, im wondering then why even use the meters on the mixer when you can actually see the sound waves passing by on the screen? :P


Another question I have relating to the bpm... say one song is 128 bpm and the other is slightly different, like 128.25. They'd sound in sync at first, but eventually drift apart. How can you know for sure that the two songs are perfectly sync'd up, or can I prevent that from happening with the CDJ features?

IMO
its better to assume that its seldom possible to sync 100% any two songs, there will more than likely be some degree of drift after time, the only question is how long it takes and weather or not you can catch it in time to make the small corrections.

i think there are some dj programs which use grids to lock the songs together but i kind of think that IS cheating actually :P

[nolimitz]

I've been using both the cross faders and volume faders. I'm not all that familiar with the software and probably won't invest much time in it since I'll have gear soon.

In my opinion i think its better to get familiar with the software before you get the gear. After you have the gear its gonna look even more complex.

You're gonna get frustrated with getting to know know how everything works (software and gear) and actually getting started with the mixing. Its up to you bro, just a piece of advice.

Getting started is half the battle.

[de.j.l]

ears, I try to distinguish she sounds of the snares and reference my sounds that way, and altogether.. the way the track flows..but , its really track dependent on what I pay attention to to keep things , together.

[BurntToast]

In my opinion i think its better to get familiar with the software before you get the gear. After you have the gear its gonna look even more complex.

You're gonna get frustrated with getting to know know how everything works (software and gear) and actually getting started with the mixing. Its up to you bro, just a piece of advice.

I won't be using the software once the gear comes in... just the two CDJs and a mixer. I only downloaded the free version of VDJ for the purpose of getting familiar with some of the concepts. Since I can't really nudge, or cue songs with headphones on a laptop, I'd say the amount of "practice" I can get out of VDJ is minimal at this point.



so, im wondering then why even use the meters on the mixer when you can actually see the sound waves passing by on the screen? :P

Well I wouldn't use the meters on VDJ since theres a wave and a grid, but I basically mean using the meters on the physical mixer to replace the grid/waves.

[DJ Matt]

Well I wouldn't use the meters on VDJ since theres a wave and a grid, but I basically mean using the meters on the physical mixer to replace the grid/waves.

i used to have a mixer in which the VU metres were designed for the purpose you say. the peak was the only LED which lit up, so when the songs were in sync you had the peaks bouncing side by side.

sure, it might help, but personally i didnt find it any more than a nice gimmick. the sound overrides anything that any visual display can tell you. but perhaps it could help a little.

i would never use regular VU meters for that though


EDIT: note also that the peaks which show up on a VU meter or on the wave display on virtual dj are generaly the bassy sound like a kickdrum

you can find tracks that have sounds such as hit-hats and cymbals delayed to give it some 'swing'
those sounds will not stand out on a visual display
so in this case its possible that even when you align perfectly the kickdrums, the songs can still sound slightly out of sync and so some kind of compromise is needed in the timing in order for it to sound ok

[Djsmylez]

Start the incoming song on time. See what to do from there. It's gets too wacky, stop the new song and start bit on the one again.

I can go Into a loooong 'this is what I do' or 'try this' post. But ultimately, I will write this word... PRACTICE.

Your brain will eventually be able to distinguish the two songs. Just gotta practice.

[BurntToast]

Start the incoming song on time. See what to do from there. It's gets too wacky, stop the new song and start bit on the one again.

I can go Into a loooong 'this is what I do' or 'try this' post. But ultimately, I will write this word... PRACTICE.

Your brain will eventually be able to distinguish the two songs. Just gotta practice.

I can't wait to get my gear and start practicing. It's going to be a little tough since I don't even know another DJ that can help me out. Fortunately, we live in a time where I have youtube vids and a forum like this to learn from.

[gudy2shuz]

I can't wait to get my gear and start practicing. It's going to be a little tough since I don't even know another DJ that can help me out. Fortunately, we live in a time where I have youtube vids and a forum like this to learn from.

DJF is an excellent resource, to ask questions, get opinions, etc. But as you go out to shows and meet other DJs, you should be able to find someone who can help you out. An experienced DJ willing to mentor is pretty much priceless. I don't know what I would have done without mine.

[moyo wilde]

i was thinking somebody needs to start a beatmatching tips thread, where guys can give tips about the ways they beatmatch, tricks, etc, especially on the different genres. i am just too lazy right now.

[Rev. Foxx]

With house music and other 4otf music I listen to the kicks and move the pitch to keep the tracks on tempo. If its going to slow move the pitch up untill they sound together if its going to fast slow it down.. Take note of the position of the pitch each time you move it and keep it between the last two positions... Basically narrowing down the tempo you are shooting for. When you are very close to having them matched you make smaller adjustments and listen to the phasing of the kicks. when they are properly aligned the kicks will sound clean and fat as they go slightly out of phase they will start to cancel each other and start to sound weaker. Use a nudge to keep them aligned while you do minor pitch adjustments until you dont have to nudge to keep the kicks in phase. Once you have that done you are ready to mix the track in... Sometimes they wont go exactly because the resolution of the pitch control isnt infinite. If that happens then you gotta ride the pitch control or nudge.


And like everyone says...when you get your ear trained to hear \what it sounds like when you are off or on is when you really start having fun :)

[BurntToast]

Do you usually have to nudge again once the tracks are in sync? Like say I want to let two tracks play together for a couple minutes (I know that's kind of long, but hypothetical). Any minor difference in tempo will surely become obvious over a longer period of time. Once I mix in the 2nd track and have them both playing simultaneously to the audience, should I have to make "live" corrections? I guess it was my assumption that once the two tracks are sync'd, it's time to mix it in and just let them play/work some effects until I want to bring in the next track.

[DJ Matt]

yea you have to keep an eye on the tracks to keep them in sync and will often have to make small corrections

but you will know after a number of seconds just how close they are in tempo

it always better to make these corrections to the less audible track, or the one which has not any melodic sounds playing

[moyo wilde]

learning to ride the pitch means less audible distortion. it is also more accurate like when somebodies recipe says add a handful of xxx. how much is a handful? whose hands? i think it is better to just take the lumps and learn to ride the pitch. i could be wrong though.

[BurntToast]

You know what the real problem is? VDJ comes with that stupid sync button :D

[BurntToast]

I want to add another beat-matching question to this thread:

Q: Say I want to start "track 2" at a certain point with the current "track 1" already playing. What do you guys do in a situation where you mess up the release & beat matching badly enough that you have to restart the new track? Now you've missed your desired start point. Do you just wait until the next phrase comes in and restart that same cue point later in the song, or do you find a new cue point and release it "x" amount of bars later so that way they are essentially where you wanted them, only "x" amount of bars later?

Sorry if that got kind of tangled. Hopefully you get the idea. Simple answer is obviously "Don't mess up the release and beat matching in the first place", but just hypothetical I guess.

[DJ Matt]

You know what the real problem is? VDJ comes with that stupid sync button :D

that doesnt change anything , the tempo can be wrong and songs can still drift sometimes

[DJ Matt]

I want to add another beat-matching question to this thread:

Q: Say I want to start "track 2" at a certain point with the current "track 1" already playing. What do you guys do in a situation where you mess up the release & beat matching badly enough that you have to restart the new track? Now you've missed your desired start point. Do you just wait until the next phrase comes in and restart that same cue point later in the song, or do you find a new cue point and release it "x" amount of bars later so that way they are essentially where you wanted them, only "x" amount of bars later?

Sorry if that got kind of tangled. Hopefully you get the idea. Simple answer is obviously "Don't mess up the release and beat matching in the first place", but just hypothetical I guess.

this used to be a common problem with vinyl as the records would soemtimes be very sensative at the outer edge and once you release it you hear nothing because the needle jumped back a bit. so you would obviously just cue it up again on the nearest possible place that would sound ok, obviously counting in 4s to keep the phrasing relatively matched.

so nowdays its damn easy ! i have currently some problems with sticking play buttons on my controller, but all i need to do is set a 4 beat loop on song B and keep it in sync until time to cue up then all i need to do is release the loop when the time comes. you are guaranteed its going to be on time that way.

[Rev. Foxx]

when you oops its time to use the force and or ninja abilities. All that comes with time and experience. Eventually you will be like unstoppable.

[BurntToast]

When you beat match, do you ever include both tracks in your headphones or just match them coming from different sources (1 from phones, other from monitor)?

[silentsounds]

When you beat match, do you ever include both tracks in your headphones or just match them coming from different sources (1 from phones, other from monitor)?

Having started DJing while living in apartments, I've always mixed in headphones only. Everyone does it their own way. Some people have one source on the phones the other on monitors. Others use the split cue on their mixer which puts one source in left ear cup, the other in the right. Others, like me, prefer having both sources playing on the headphones over each other. Works out easier for me.

[sense]

When you beat match, do you ever include both tracks in your headphones or just match them coming from different sources (1 from phones, other from monitor)?
If you mix in your headphones use the cue pan on your mixer and adjust the cue pan so you hear the cued track louder then the live track helps with being able to separate the two tracks easier.

[moyo wilde]

Having started DJing while living in apartments, I've always mixed in headphones only. Everyone does it their own way. Some people have one source on the phones the other on monitors. Others use the split cue on their mixer which puts one source in left ear cup, the other in the right. Others, like me, prefer having both sources playing on the headphones over each other. Works out easier for me.

i used to do that, but when you play out you need an ear to hear what everyone else is hearing. you will have to start out all over again training your ears, when you play out to get the "one cup" method down. it is better if you have, because you are at or it is late, to to put one source per ear.

[Djsmylez]

I want to add another beat-matching question to this thread:

Q: Say I want to start "track 2" at a certain point with the current "track 1" already playing. What do you guys do in a situation where you mess up the release & beat matching badly enough that you have to restart the new track? Now you've missed your desired start point. Do you just wait until the next phrase comes in and restart that same cue point later in the song, or do you find a new cue point and release it "x" amount of bars later so that way they are essentially where you wanted them, only "x" amount of bars later?

Sorry if that got kind of tangled. Hopefully you get the idea. Simple answer is obviously "Don't mess up the release and beat matching in the first place", but just hypothetical I guess.

That's where preparation comes in my friend. When your chillin at home making random mixes, your filling Ur head with what sounds good and what doesn't. U practice enough, u will remember them when you are spinning live to a crowd.

Missing your desired point in a mix is troublesome. Coming from a digital Djs standpoint, cue points are always helpful. After a phrase, use the points to jump to another point in the song where there are little to no vocals...

Or loop some lyrics and half it and half it and half it and use it as a transition. Or just slam the the new track. Or use a sound effect to cover it up and bring in the new track. Or simply find another phrase to mix put of...

Be creative, learn different transition types, be confident in what you do.

[BurntToast]

Just got my gear set up last night. Off work today so going to practice beat matching quite a bit... gotta say it's pretty tough at this point.

[DJ Matt]

When you beat match, do you ever include both tracks in your headphones or just match them coming from different sources (1 from phones, other from monitor)?

i use split cue , one track in the lef, the other in the right, particularly in situations where i dont have a monitor, reason being that even if the PA is rather close you will get a delay from the sound and your incoming track will be behind by a bit.

quick checks in the heaphones are useful to make sure your on time, but its nicer if you can hear the transition live on a booth monitor.


Just got my gear set up last night. Off work today so going to practice beat matching quite a bit... gotta say it's pretty tough at this point.

you should have it down in minutes after all the advice recieved here ! :D

nah seriously, enjoy!

[Djsmylez]

Just got my gear set up last night. Off work today so going to practice beat matching quite a bit... gotta say it's pretty tough at this point.

Find a song with a distinct beat...

Play on both decks and screw up the pitch control without looking. And try match the same song with itself.

I hope that made sense. But it'll teach u to ride the pitch control. Do so without looking at the waveforms, train your ears! It will make a huge difference in the long run. Your ears are the best measure for syncing.

[BurntToast]

Find a song with a distinct beat...

Play on both decks and screw up the pitch control without looking. And try match the same song with itself.

I hope that made sense. But it'll teach u to ride the pitch control. Do so without looking at the waveforms, train your ears! It will make a huge difference in the long run. Your ears are the best measure for syncing.

Thanks for the tip. I've been looping the beginnings and ends of tracks to give myself more time to match. I still find it tough to tell which track is ahead and which is behind, but for now I'm just trying not to over-think it and to make adjustments to what sounds good (ie. just seeing if they get closer together or further apart).

I will say that the BMP readouts on my CDJ200s are pretty much worthless. They jump around a good amount, even during a track when I'm not adjusting anything.

[DJ Matt]

Thanks for the tip. I've been looping the beginnings and ends of tracks to give myself more time to match. I still find it tough to tell which track is ahead and which is behind, but for now I'm just trying not to over-think it and to make adjustments to what sounds good (ie. just seeing if they get closer together or further apart).

I will say that the BMP readouts on my CDJ200s are pretty much worthless. They jump around a good amount, even during a track when I'm not adjusting anything.

listen to song A on the speakers, and even put the heaphones just a bit away from your ear so you can only hear the sharper sounds of Song B
think of song B as an extra "instrument" that you need to add into song A,
it should not be a question of "which song is behind or ahead" because song A is always in the right place, its a question of if song B is on time or not


hope that makes sense LOL

:D

[BurntToast]

Haha yeah that's basically what I meant... I just worded it incorrectly. I'm having a lot of fun dropping songs in right now.

[moyo wilde]

dj matt good advice. i do that, move the headphones away and/or i turn up the mids high so that the sound is very distinguishable. so that if the drums sound similiar they won't after you do that and you will be able to do the whole track b as an instrument that has to be timed.

also something else that i learned is to stop touching things. you have time once you think it is beatmatched let the track play, in headphones. if you think it is slipping off beat but are not quite sure leave it alone, let it fall off, you will know which one and you will know how bad it is. also if you run out of time. you know if the incoming track is slower/ faster and that you will need to make what adjustments on that track. also it give you time to know how the tracks sound together. also good info to have when making adjustments or making up for a sloppy cue.

also for tighter mixes once i have it beatmatched i let the cued track play. sometimes i am not paying attention to it. but if it falls off after along time i can make slight adjustments.

good luck and remember to have fun.

[BurntToast]

If you mix in your headphones use the cue pan on your mixer and adjust the cue pan so you hear the cued track louder then the live track helps with being able to separate the two tracks easier.

Unfortunately, my mixer (DJM 400) doesn't have this. I've been trying to mix using the "one cup on, one cup off", and then just checking them together on the headphones to confirm. Thanks for the heads up on how headphone mixing can get difficult in a live setting. Don't want to stick myself in any ruts early on...

[Hausgeist]

Use the "2 girls 1 cup" method.

[BurntToast]

Use the "2 girls 1 cup" method.

Haha I saw that coming when I wrote that last post... didn't even try to stop it

[BurntToast]

Update: This shit is A LOT of fun!

[Fred McLovin]

Lots. Why is that an asshole thing to do?

A lot of people make half decimal BPM song ?? Which kin of music are you listening to ?? LOL bro I have over 2000 songs scanned in rekordbox and there's no track with a half decimal BPM... and when bpm is at like 128.15 its only because of an analysing error.... It would be completely stupid to do a song with a non rounded decimal !

[Andrew B]

A lot of people make half decimal BPM song ?? Which kin of music are you listening to ?? LOL bro I have over 2000 songs scanned in rekordbox and there's no track with a half decimal BPM... and when bpm is at like 128.15 its only because of an analysing error.... It would be completely stupid to do a song with a non rounded decimal !

I guess I just don't understand why it's a big deal?

[Sigma]

It would be completely stupid to do a song with a non rounded decimal !
Why??

[BurntToast]

I guess I just don't understand why it's a big deal?

I guess the producer isn't gaining much from having something between 128 and 129 in this example.

[Hausgeist]

I guess the producer isn't gaining much from having something between 128 and 129 in this example.

Well, it would weed out the twats using bpm readouts or pitch % display... :lol:

[Finnish_Fox]

I guess the producer isn't gaining much from having something between 128 and 129 in this example.

That makes it unnecessary, not stupid.

[Finnish_Fox]

Well, it would weed out the twats using bpm readouts or pitch % display... :lol:

My thoughts exactly. Who gives a fuck it its not a whole number BPM since you'll be changing the BPM if you actually mix it anyways.


LOL bro I have over 2000 songs scanned in rekordbox and there's no track with a half decimal BPM...

Well, look at you! :facepalm:

[Fred McLovin]

Why??

Because it's unnatural... our ear is used to track at rounded bpm... I mean, 32 bar at 128 bpm is 1 minute... much more easier to work with, more user friendly... Using half decimal would just fuck up a lot of people... !

[Fred McLovin]

My thoughts exactly. Who gives a fuck it its not a whole number BPM since you'll be changing the BPM if you actually mix it anyways.



Well, look at you! :facepalm:


It's not a matter of who give a fuck about whole number BPM.... its a matter of producing music that is appealing to everyone....

[Finnish_Fox]

It's not a matter of who give a fuck about whole number BPM.... its a matter of producing music that is appealing to everyone....

So, again, why does the decimal BPM reading matter if the track is bumpin'?

Even if you made the track a whole number BPM, it would become a decimal BPM reading once you pitch it up or down at all... so, unless you play strictly 128.0 BPM tracks always at the same pitch, like 0%, (how boring) then it doesn't matter one bit.

[Finnish_Fox]

Using half decimal would just fuck up a lot of people... !

Who the fuck is counting beats like that when they mix? They've got ears FFS.

[Andrew B]

Because it's unnatural... our ear is used to track at rounded bpm...
What? False.


I mean, 32 bar at 128 bpm is 1 minute...
So? As soon as you start moving the pitch you get decimals. Don't tell me you do entire sets at a constant BPM.


much more easier to work with, more user friendly...
How so? It's all the same to me.


Using half decimal would just fuck up a lot of people... !
Perhaps those people should learn how to DJ?

[RDRCK]

Because it's unnatural... our ear is used to track at rounded bpm... I mean, 32 bar at 128 bpm is 1 minute... much more easier to work with, more user friendly... Using half decimal would just fuck up a lot of people... !

Fred, time and tempo are completely abstract phenomena.

The idea that the human ear will find a track with a tempo set at a counting number BPM (e.g. 1, 2, 3...128, 129...) is absolutely absurd because time is abstract. It is not a function of our genetics or our physiology.

The fact that we divide the days into 24 hours, the hours into 60 minutes and the minutes into 60 seconds is completely arbitrary. We could have easily divided the days into 100 gugnots, gugnots into 67 whammos, and whammos into 6 thoutons.

Where would your argument be then? (Nearly) Every track that is at a whole, counting number bpm using our current system of timekeeping would be at a mixed number BPM.

[Sigma]

Because it's unnatural... our ear is used to track at rounded bpm... I mean, 32 bar at 128 bpm is 1 minute... much more easier to work with, more user friendly... Using half decimal would just fuck up a lot of people... !

Nah man, RDRCK's post breaks down perfectly why that is nonsense so I won't repeat what he said, but it is utter nonsense.

[BurntToast]

That makes it unnecessary, not stupid.

Agreed. It's pointless. The vast majority of people can't distinguish pitch to save their life... they're not counting how many times they bob their head every minute.

[DJ Matt]

A lot of people make half decimal BPM song ?? Which kin of music are you listening to ?? LOL bro I have over 2000 songs scanned in rekordbox and there's no track with a half decimal BPM


sure if all your music goes to a house beat..

i just checked my main music folder that i use and out of 150 tracks there was a bout 12 which are whole numbers..



Because it's unnatural... our ear is used to track at rounded bpm... I mean, 32 bar at 128 bpm is 1 minute... much more easier to work with, more user friendly... Using half decimal would just fuck up a lot of people... !

eh?

maybe easier when your in the production stage but when Ding it really shouldnt matter



EDIT:

anyway Burnttoast how are you getting on? where is our mix? :D

[Fred McLovin]

You are all right... You all have valid point.

But what I mean is that it's totally unnecessary to produce music without whole number bpm !? And it has some inconvenience... I mean when you produce you want your stuff to be appealing to everyone. Even if all of you dont care about decimal BPM, maybe someone in the world actually care and would be fucked up on his CDJ if the song was half bpm... And if I'm a producer, I want to avoid that... I don't want anyone to have problem playing my music....

Thanks for your understanding guys ! :)

[drop1]

A good Dj will not have a problem with a track just because the bpm is not a whole number. With turntables it completely does not matter, with cdj's the difference behind the decimal is going to be close to the resolution of most cd players in one direction (pitched up or down) or the other as I'm sure will be the same on dvs' . The only problem I could see is maybe a problem with auto sync but I wouldn't know because I've never used it.

[DJ Matt]

i dont think i even knew about BPMs until i started producing tracks , i was DJing 5 years before that with vinyl

this is very much a new thing, because on most turning platters the BPMs will fluctuate anyway so there is no absolute....

guess im sounding old now.... :P

[nolimitz]

Wow all this argument over a little statement i said about a decimal bpm. The ppl who thought that having a "decimal bpm" like 120.52 was blasphemy, I was referring to a song being pitched up or down, like it was mentioned above numerously. Now this thread is filled with a pointless argument.

case in point - 128bpm pitched up or down will not be a whole number.

The cdj/turntable/deck doesn't piss excellence you know.

[Hausgeist]

Now this thread is filled with a pointless argument.

Welcome to the Thunderdome Bee-yatches! :slayer:

[Finnish_Fox]

But what I mean is that it's totally unnecessary to produce music without whole number bpm !?

See:


That makes it unnecessary, not stupid.


And it has some inconvenience... I mean when you produce you want your stuff to be appealing to everyone.

I don't know a single person who doesn't like a track just because it was written with a decimal BPM.

"Oh, I'd like that track if it was 128 BPM instead of 128.3"... :eek:


Even if all of you dont care about decimal BPM, maybe someone in the world actually care and would be fucked up on his CDJ if the song was half bpm...

...and that person should learn to DJ.


And if I'm a producer, I want to avoid that... I don't want anyone to have problem playing my music....

Whatever floats your boat.

[Finnish_Fox]

i dont think i even knew about BPMs until i started producing tracks , i was DJing 5 years before that with vinyl

this is very much a new thing, because on most turning platters the BPMs will fluctuate anyway so there is no absolute....

guess im sounding old now.... :P

^ This. God gave you ears for a fuckin' reason!

[nolimitz]

Welcome to the Thunderdome Bee-yatches! :slayer:

haha thats the same thing they say on the car forum i go to.

[BurntToast]

EDIT:

anyway Burnttoast how are you getting on? where is our mix? :D

Gonna record my first one this Friday. Not expecting it to be spectacular or anything, but I'd just like to see what you guys would have to say. I'm getting the beat matching a lot better, but it's still hard with some songs. I'm also using logitech computer speakers as monitors, which sucks. I gotta say that using a quick drop transition is a pretty easy, but still energetic way to hit the next song. I don't want to make a habit out of it, only cuz i know mixing is the harder and most important skill to learn.

My EQ mixing will prob sound like shit on this mix. I'm really kinda guessing with that cuz I'm not really sure exactly what I'm doing with it... just trying to keep it subtle and make it sound good.

[Finnish_Fox]

Gonna record my first one this Friday. Not expecting it to be spectacular or anything, but I'd just like to see what you guys would have to say. I'm getting the beat matching a lot better, but it's still hard with some songs. I'm also using logitech computer speakers as monitors, which sucks. I gotta say that using a quick drop transition is a pretty easy, but still energetic way to hit the next song. I don't want to make a habit out of it, only cuz i know mixing is the harder and most important skill to learn.

My EQ mixing will prob sound like shit on this mix. I'm really kinda guessing with that cuz I'm not really sure exactly what I'm doing with it... just trying to keep it subtle and make it sound good.

I look forward to listening to it and critiquing it. What do you play?

[BurntToast]

I look forward to listening to it and critiquing it. What do you play?

It'll likely be a mix of house, prog house, electro and some slower "trance" (128-132 BPM). No idea what songs I'm going to use yet. I'll probably just figure it out shortly before.

Looking forward to getting some critique and constructive criticism. Just keep in mind I only started 5 days ago.

[moyo wilde]

128-132 great so there might be some decimals in there, and you aren't staying at 128.:squint:
god my head will hurt.:mad:













:banana::banana::banana:jus jokes:banana::banana::banana:

[Finnish_Fox]

It'll likely be a mix of house, prog house, electro and some slower "trance" (128-132 BPM). No idea what songs I'm going to use yet. I'll probably just figure it out shortly before.

Looking forward to getting some critique and constructive criticism. Just keep in mind I only started 5 days ago.

You probably think I'm a dick... and I probably am, but I am all for legitimately helping people who are interested in really learning the trade.

Here is one I just posted: http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?4643-My-Battle-Mix

[DJ Que Yi]

First thing is to alway's rely on your ears. Unless something unusual is preventing you to do do then resort to visuals-fix the problem and get back to ears!

[DJArmani]

make sure u count 8 beats until u hear they are on beat no matter the tempo

[BurntToast]

Bumping this thread with my first mix submission.

http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?5222-My-First-Mix&p=59148#post59148

[ben mills]

make sure u count 8 beats until u hear they are on beat no matter the tempo

No way is 8 enough. It's enough to know if they aren't on beat, but it's not enough to know if they are.

[Finnish_Fox]

No way is 8 enough. It's enough to know if they aren't on beat, but it's not enough to know if they are.

Exactly... the longer you want to keep your mix going, the less counting to 8 will work.

[BurntToast]

Yeah 8 doesn't sound like much, unless he meant 8 bars

[Finnish_Fox]

Yeah 8 doesn't sound like much, unless he meant 8 bars

Did you get that mix up yet?

[BurntToast]

Did you get that mix up yet?

Just posted it on page 9 of this thread a couple hours ago. Meant to record something last Friday but something else came up, so I did it today instead.

http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?5222-My-First-Mix&p=59217#post59217

[Finnish_Fox]

I'll check it out. Mind if I comment on it in Soundcloud?

[BurntToast]

I'll check it out. Mind if I comment on it in Soundcloud?

Which ever you prefer. I will probably take it off of Soundcloud at some point though, assuming I have cleaner mixes to replace it with in the future.

[Finnish_Fox]

Which ever you prefer. I will probably take it off of Soundcloud at some point though, assuming I have cleaner mixes to replace it with in the future.

Sure... I do that all the time... just easier to pinpoint the comment exactly.

[BurntToast]

Got a new question for this thread:

Unless I'm mistaken, there are basically two ways to beat match. One is using just the pitch fader, and the other uses a combo of the pitch fader and nudging the jog wheel. I've been relying heavily on the jog wheel because I'm finding it seems like a faster and more direct way to get the beats in sync by just nudging and then adjusting the pitch fader.

How do you guys feel about the use of one technique vs. the other? I don't want to become reliant on one technique while somewhat ignoring another that might be essential. Also, about how long does it typically take you to make sure they are in sync. Do you listen for ~8 bars to make confirm that they are in sync?

[Finnish_Fox]

Got a new question for this thread:

Unless I'm mistaken, there are basically two ways to beat match. One is using just the pitch fader, and the other uses a combo of the pitch fader and nudging the jog wheel. I've been relying heavily on the jog wheel because I'm finding it seems like a faster and more direct way to get the beats in sync by just nudging and then adjusting the pitch fader once they fall apart.

How do you guys feel about the use of one technique vs. the other? I don't want to become reliant on one technique while somewhat ignoring another that might be essential. Also, about how long does it typically take you to make sure they are in sync. Do you listen for ~8 bars to make confirm that they are in sync?

Using just the pitch is called riding the pitch.

Both get the job done, one is just a more advanced skill. Using the jog wheel (similar to brushing TT platter with finger or advancing TT platter by twisting spindle) is more direct, but it is much more noticeable as you are making a bigger change in a shorter amount of time. Riding the pitch, when done properly, is far less noticeable as you are making very slight changes over a considerably longer amount of time.

With Master Tempo on CDJs, for example, the effect of using the jog wheel is minimized... but for TTs it is very much true still.

I don't think its one technique vs the other. IMO, always go for the advanced technique when you can but its nice to be able to adjust it using the jog wheel if need be.

I try to keep my mixes going for 2+ minutes... you will rarely get them exact so you will almost always have to make adjustments here and there.

[BurntToast]

Thanks for the quick reply, Fox. Makes perfect sense. I guess I can take away from your post that if I'm matching in my headphones then I can afford to use the jog wheel more since no one else is hearing it, but riding the pitch would be better when an audience can hear it. I'll definitely try to work on riding the pitch more.

About how long should it take to get a track cue'd up and matched? About how long are you listening for to confirm that the songs are matched? Is "close enough" okay as long as you are listening carefully and making adjustments?

[Finnish_Fox]

Thanks for the quick reply, Fox. Makes perfect sense. I guess I can take away from your post that if I'm matching in my headphones then I can afford to use the jog wheel more since no one else is hearing it, but riding the pitch would be better when an audience can hear it. I'll definitely try to work on riding the pitch more.

Yah, that's definitely one way to think about it. Its a good skill to have... and it looks a lot cooler when you are touching the pitch instead of the platter - you look like you know what you are doing!


About how long should it take to get a track cue'd up and matched? About how long are you listening for to confirm that the songs are matched? Is "close enough" okay as long as you are listening carefully and making adjustments?

Maybe 30 seconds to get it cue'd up and roughly matched. Personally, I get it pretty close, throw it in and make my final adjustments as its playing... so I will go for 4-8 beats before throwing it in, but I am constantly adjusting it.

Listen to my deep house battle mix - you can hear when it goes a bit off and where I correct it.

[BurntToast]

Maybe 30 seconds to get it cue'd up and roughly matched. Personally, I get it pretty close, throw it in and make my final adjustments as its playing... so I will go for 4-8 beats before throwing it in, but I am constantly adjusting it.

Listen to my deep house battle mix - you can hear when it goes a bit off and where I correct it.

I will check it out.

As far as bringing in the next track, I've been trying more to start the next track with it already being at around 30-40% volume. It seems like bringing it in a few bars after makes it seem a little awkward that the new phrases don't start together. I guess one way around it would be to cue the new track 4-8 bars early and start it 4-8 bars earlier, that way I could confirm the songs are in sync before starting off on that phrase. Maybe this is where I can start using loops more?

[Finnish_Fox]

I will check it out.

As far as bringing in the next track, I've been trying more to start the next track with it already being at around 30-40% volume. It seems like bringing it in a few bars after makes it seem a little awkward that the new phrases don't start together. I guess one way around it would be to cue the new track 4-8 bars early and start it 4-8 bars earlier, that way I could confirm the songs are in sync before starting off on that phrase. Maybe this is where I can start using loops more?

Got your PM... cheers!

Now that you get that, let me just say the following...

You may find one method works better than another based on the format you are using... at least I do.

When I use CDJs, I find that manipulating the platter works a bit better because of the quick response and accuracy of the digital pitch with master tempo (to slow down any pitch changes). Since there is relatively little (or zero) wow/flutter, changing the pitch often results in the track being even more out of sync than the current setting plus master tempo keeps all the melodies from bending when you nudge the platter.

When I use TTs, however, the pitch is (often) analog and is slower to react to a pitch change... plus there is no master tempo and you are subject to far more wow/flutter. My TTs have a digital pitch (I believe) which would minimize wow/flutter (though still considerably more than a CDJ in my experience) however the pitch still adjusts pretty slowly. So, without master tempo, the tune will bend if you nudge/brake the platter (very noticeable with melodies) and the slow response of the pitch allows you to effectively move it back and forth over the "sweet spot" to keep the tracks synced.

The other thing I was going to mention was regarding how long it should take you to get the next track cued up, etc. So, let me just break it down for you. I play funky/deep house, most of which are 6-7' tracks. So, for this example, we'll just say all my tracks are 6' from the middle of the mix as on your first track you have way more time and on your last track, you aren't cuing up anything.

Very basically:

- Last 2' of prior track mixing with first 2' of current track
- Fade or EQ out when you feel like it or at a convenient breakdown
- Current track plays for 2' during which time you are selecting and beat-matching the next track and determine phrasing of current track
- Mix new track in - sometimes, if you lose count (or whatever since I don't count), you may have to wait until the next phrase. No biggie with 2' left.
- Those two tracks mix for most of the remainder of the current track and the first 2' of the remainder - Fader or EQ out.
- New track plays for 2'...
- Rinse a repeat.

When you really get to understand your tracks, you will be able to match them quicker and also will know when you want to mix in/out of them and, with that, you can bend the "rules" - let a mix ride through the breakdown (which I did on my mix), cue up a longer track quicker (I also did this with the second to last track - 8' so 2-3' under previous track, like 1-2' on its own and another 2-3' under the last track), and mix drop-to-drop-to-drop which I often do.

[BurntToast]

Thanks for the breakdown. Sort of what I'm working on doing right now, but because I'm playing more progressive house/electro house, I think my mixes need to come out shorter. I'm working a lot on mixing into the middle of songs to get more tracks in a shorter amount of time... not for the purpose of trying to show that I can do it, but I don't want to play 5 minutes of a prog house track. It gets old fast. I think the funky/deep house songs blend a lot better together, so longer mixes are fitting for the style of music. Most of mine are 30-60 seconds.

I'm working on mixing on mostly prog/electro house right now, but I love the vibe in all 3 mixes from that battle. Shoot me a PM with your track list or some song recommendations if you don't mind.

[BurntToast]

Alright, new question.

I've gotten the beat matching down pretty well by both riding the pitch fader and nudging the jog wheel. I spent some time mixing the same transitions 30-40 times, and also using loops by getting them in sync, purposely messing it up, then getting them back in sync at a different BPM. It turned out to be really helpful because while learning to ride the pitch, I really got to practice the EQing and that has improved a ton.

Here's the new hurdle... what is the best way to bring in the next song with some volume, but being sure that it's synched? Ideally, I want to bring in "Track B" with about 50% volume and the bass at around the 8 or 9 o'clock position. I can have it cue'd and ready to go, but obviously my cues aren't always going to be perfect and neither is me hitting play on the corresponding 1 of "Track A." What I've been doing up til now, is starting "Track B" at 50% volume and riding the pitch as I increase the volume. It works, but the only thing I don't like is that even though it's at a low volume, my tracks are still often slightly out of sync when I initially hit play. Usually, I need to increase "Track B"'s volume to even hear both songs well enough to know if it's synched, which means it's too audible for an audience.

I've though about trying loops, but the human error factor in cutting a loop can basically lead to the same issue in most cases (especially on my CDJ 200's which aren't great at cutting loops as it is). The other thing I've thought about is just cueing the next song 8-16 bars earlier and starting it 8-16 bars earlier, then throwing the volume in at the point where I'm ready. Seems more complicated and could end up being disastrous. Any tips out there for a guy learning on his own?

[Sublim&All]

Sounds like either perfecting your timing on hitting the play button, decreasing any possible latency (if you're working with a digital setup), or make/change your setup so you can make auto loops.

[Tito Lopez]

Burntoast, start song B in cue, through your headphones, do the beat matching through your headphones. When you feel everything is matched, lower the bass and treble of song b then fade the song in at a good moment. fade it in however you want. Then start playing with the eq, and crossfader until you get rid of song A.

[Finnish_Fox]

Burntoast, start song B in cue, through your headphones, do the beat matching through your headphones. When you feel everything is matched, lower the bass and treble of song b then fade the song in at a good moment. fade it in however you want. Then start playing with the eq, and crossfader until you get rid of song A.

To each his own... and the equipment you use. With the slow reaction time of the 1200 pitch, you could pretty much throw in the track when its close and just ride the pitch during the mix. A bit more difficult to ride the pitch on CDJs because the pitch reacts pretty much instantly.

[Tito Lopez]

Thats why you beatmatch in your headphones with cd's. Once you got the beats matched, return to the intro and and bring in song B in a start of A's chorus or outro. Hit play listen to both songs in your headphones match the beats, then move the fader channel at the end of A's chorus or the second bar of A's outro.

[BurntToast]

Thats why you beatmatch in your headphones with cd's. Once you got the beats matched, return to the intro and and bring in song B in a start of A's chorus or outro. Hit play listen to both songs in your headphones match the beats, then move the fader channel at the end of A's chorus or the second bar of A's outro.

Right, but what I'm saying is, for example, that I want to start song B at the at the beginning of song A's outro, but I want to throw it in with volume as soon as the outro of song A starts. It sounds awkward to me if song A's outro starts by itself and then I slowly fade in song B. Kind of sounds like it's coming in late and I don't really want Song A's outro playing by itself for any amount of time.

[Finnish_Fox]

Thats why you beatmatch in your headphones with cd's.

I use headphones with TTs as well.


Right, but what I'm saying is, for example, that I want to start song B at the at the beginning of song A's outro, but I want to throw it in with volume as soon as the outro of song A starts. It sounds awkward to me if song A's outro starts by itself and then I slowly fade in song B. Kind of sounds like it's coming in late and I don't really want Song A's outro playing by itself for any amount of time.

Start track B before the outro of A so when the outro of A hits, you are a step ahead of the game.

[TCMuc]

Right, but what I'm saying is, for example, that I want to start song B at the at the beginning of song A's outro, but I want to throw it in with volume as soon as the outro of song A starts. It sounds awkward to me if song A's outro starts by itself and then I slowly fade in song B. Kind of sounds like it's coming in late and I don't really want Song A's outro playing by itself for any amount of time.


You just have to work on your precision hitting that play button... I mean, all we're talking about here is hitting a rather big button at the right time. With some practice you should be able to do that in >90% of the time. It's even possible to do that with Vinyl, which imho is way more difficult, as almost every record feels different when cueing, because the holes in the middle aren't allways the same size, different weight of the records, etc...

So keep practicing until you get it right most of the time. For the rare occasions where you miss by a little bit: keep your headphones on one ear when starting the track. This way way you will hear the offset much faster and clearer than the crowd, especially if you start the track at 50% volume. By having your hand right at the jog wheel after pressing play you should be able to correct the offset very quick. As most tracks start out with only beats or at least a rather stripped down arrangement with little melodic content using the jog wheel shouldn't be a problem.

[Finnish_Fox]

Seems to me that BurntToast is asking more about phrasing than syncing.

[BurntToast]

Seems to me that BurntToast is asking more about phrasing than syncing.

Well... I know the phrases I want to mix, but it's more about getting them synched so I can just throw in the volume at the ideal point rather than hit the button. I don't find it hard to hit the button at the right time, but I feel like there is always some slight intrinsic error whether it's from the cue point, the touch of the button, etc.. Not knowing a single DJ IRL, I'm trying to figure out a lot on my own. I'm sure there are things that I'm taking the long road on and could be using a much shorter approach instead.

I'm gonna try cutting some loops and seeing how that works. The other thing will be to cue Song B 8 bars earlier and start it 8 bars earlier in Song A (in my headphones), then throw the volume in at the beginning of Song A's outro.

[Finnish_Fox]

Well... I know the phrases I want to mix, but it's more about getting them synched so I can just throw in the volume at the ideal point rather than hit the button. I don't find it hard to hit the button at the right time, but I feel like there is always some slight intrinsic error whether it's from the cue point, the touch of the button, etc.. Not knowing a single DJ IRL, I'm trying to figure out a lot on my own. I'm sure there are things that I'm taking the long road on and could be using a much shorter approach instead.

Phrasing is a bit more knowing you want this phrase to be mixing over that phrase. For example, deciding whether to start it on the phrase before the outro or on the outro phrase itself which sort of sound like you were driving at.

I have no idea what you mean by the volume and hitting the button part... do you mean you have the crossfader open, volume up and incoming track is paused and you are pressing the button to start it in sync and it goes straight into the mix.



The other thing will be to cue Song B 8 bars earlier and start it 8 bars earlier in Song A (in my headphones), then throw the volume in at the beginning of Song A's outro.

This sounds like a phrasing choice.

[Celestial]

When two songs are not in sync but are at the same tempo, it can be kind of difficult to tell exactly which song is ahead and which is behind (for me at least... i have no experience). To me, it just sound cluttered and clearly off. Do you guys consider it "cheating" to use the level meters on the mixer as a visual aid to get them in sync? Is there a better way to do it?

i'm sure it's been answered in the last 12 pages but the best thing is to use your ears, tweak the platter a little forward and if the beats are drifting more from one another then go the other way

[BurntToast]

I have no idea what you mean by the volume and hitting the button part... do you mean you have the crossfader open, volume up and incoming track is paused and you are pressing the button to start it in sync and it goes straight into the mix.

Exactly, but with Song B at around 50% volume and starting it as soon as as Song A's chorus ends and outro begins. It just sounds weird to me when that outro of Song A begins and Song B doesn't get thrown in until later. I want the first down beat of the outro of Song A to contain some volume on Song B.

With the styles you mix, I think this is less important. Your intro of Song B to the mix can probably be more gradual since your mixes are typically longer. At least this is what I gather from listening to a lot of live sets and my own mixes.


This sounds like a phrasing choice.

When I'm saying phrasing (correct interpretation or not), I'm talking about matching phrases that I want to be audible to an audience.

Basically, phrasing = musical. I play instruments and am comfortable with making sure my phrases match well. What I'm trying to get down is more of a technical thing.

[Finnish_Fox]

Exactly, but with Song B at around 50% volume and starting it as soon as as Song A's chorus ends and outro begins. It just sounds weird to me when that outro of Song A begins and Song B doesn't get thrown in until later. I want the first down beat of the outro of Song A to contain some volume on Song B.

So you specifically want the first beat of track B to start on the first beat of track A's outro? What I was suggesting before is start it one phrase early so that by the time the outro starts, track B is already there, perhaps EQ'd down a bit.

I use the upbeat (hi-hat/clap) to mix usually but if I were going to do that I would just drop it in at almost 100% on the downbeat - of course I use vinyl/vinyl mode and, for me, its easier to release on time when I am moving the record/platter back in forth in time as opposed to pressing the play button once (more like stab in the dark).


With the styles you mix, I think this is less important. Your intro of Song B to the mix can probably be more gradual since your mixes are typically longer. At least this is what I gather from listening to a lot of live sets and my own mixes. When I'm saying phrasing (correct interpretation or not), I'm talking about matching phrases that I want to be audible to an audience. Basically, phrasing = musical. I play instruments and am comfortable with making sure my phrases match well. What I'm trying to get down is more of a technical thing.

Yah - I try to make my mixes as long as possible.

Right - there is that part of phrasing where you want things to flow together but then there is also timing. Since the phrase is repetitive, you can choose which phrase to begin one but it will still be properly phrased.

As an example... if its a 8-bar phrase, you could start it 8-bars before the outro (on the proper phrase) or you can start it on the outro - both will be phrased properly however different elements will combine if you mix 8-bars before outro vs on the outro.

Are you playing house?

[BurntToast]

So you specifically want the first beat of track B to start on the first beat of track A's outro? What I was suggesting before is start it one phrase early so that by the time the outro starts, track B is already there, perhaps EQ'd down a bit.

I use the upbeat (hi-hat/clap) to mix usually but if I were going to do that I would just drop it in at almost 100% on the downbeat - of course I use vinyl/vinyl mode and, for me, its easier to release on time when I am moving the record/platter back in forth in time as opposed to pressing the play button once (more like stab in the dark).



Yah - I try to make my mixes as long as possible.

Right - there is that part of phrasing where you want things to flow together but then there is also timing. Since the phrase is repetitive, you can choose which phrase to begin one but it will still be properly phrased.

As an example... if its a 8-bar phrase, you could start it 8-bars before the outro (on the proper phrase) or you can start it on the outro - both will be phrased properly however different elements will combine if you mix 8-bars before outro vs on the outro.

Are you playing house?

Yeah mostly progressive house and electro house but I'm getting saturated with the popular songs and it's getting old fast. I'm even getting tired of mixing/practicing because of it.

Right now, I'm trying to compile a collection of deeper/funkier stuff to start working with too. Even messing around with some trance just to change it up.