Subwoofer Advice $8,000 - $10,000 Budget

[SAVAIRE]

Hey everyone,

Yet another "Help me choose what subs" forum! Right now we are looking to scrap our existing bass and sell what we have to go with a more uniform bottom end. We have a decent budget, $8000 - $10,000, play primarily house and dance music, with some top 40. Our normal venues range from 15,000 - 25,000 sqft and even bigger at some events.

Obviously we aren't expecting to rock the entire building, as we would need a major major production for that, but we are looking to rock out the front towards our stage, lighting, etc.

Powered is preferred, but not required. Freq's starting at 30-35hz so we get a deep bass. We were checking out some dual 18's, Yorkville powered, and some EV's, but we have a lot of research to do yet. We want to get the best bang for our buck like anyone does.

Thanks for all of the help in advance! I'm glad DJF is back in action :)

Rob Savaire

[windspeed36]

JBL's SRX728S is a likely contender, along with the EAW SB1002. Just depends on a) availibility of subs and b)amps for said subwoofers.

I can't remember any sorta price range for then but also the Meyer - 600 and 700HP

[deejaygo]

if powered is preferred, check out KV2 Audio's Sub lineup. On par with EAW, Meyer, Turbosound.

EAW also has a powered lineup that fits your budget. Check out the EP series (older but you may still find some), and the NT series. The subs in those ranges go as low as 35hz, which is just in the range you'd like them to it.

If you can settle for passive, some EAW KF subs powered by a (used) Lab Gruppen amp would would just as great, if not better, than the above subs.

[disbjohn]

Check out PK Sound. Alot of EDM artists are travelling and using these subs. They have extension down to 25hz and is a cardiod setup. They are powered as well.
http://www.pksound.ca/products/subwoofers/cx800/

[windspeed36]

I think also dB Technologies has a dual 18" series - the S20 and S30 - haven't heard them or have any ideas on pricing but from all accounts they really rock quite well.

[audiopyle]

Yorkville LS2100P would deliver tremendous output for the price.

[GaFFLe]

The Danley DBH-218LC will put all of these contenders soundly away but a pair would probably put you $1000 over your budget.

[Incognito]

The Danley DBH-218LC will put all of these contenders soundly away but a pair would probably put you $1000 over your budget.

@ 277 pounds each it's more likely put someone's back out first.

[Incognito]

At less then your minimum budget of $8,000 you can pick up four of these http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/orbit-shifter/ that will net you the same performance as a pair of the Danley DBH-218LC yet save you over $3,000 at the same time.

[unsafe8989]

At less then your minimum budget of $8,000 you can pick up four of these http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/orbit-shifter/ that will net you the same performance as a pair of the Danley DBH-218LC yet save you over $3,000 at the same time.

I was gonna sugest these ha. So how is it that it goes from 8 too 2 ohms and does it really need that much power?

[Incognito]

I was gonna sugest these ha. So how is it that it goes from 8 too 2 ohms and does it really need that much power?

They don't change inmpedance, you choose the version you want. Say you want to run a pair with one per channel then you can go for the 2 ohm version but say you want to run four with two per channel then you can go for the 8 ohm version. No they don't really need that much power, that's just their power handling but they get loud pretty quick without having to dump all that power into them.

[audiopyle]

Which brings up the point that both the Danley and JTR options, at the price points mentioned, will still require ampllifiers. I'm a Danley dealer and love the products and performance, but I think at the budget level and appllication being discussed the LS2100Ps are a smart choice.

[Incognito]

Which brings up the point that both the Danley and JTR options, at the price points mentioned, will still require ampllifiers. I'm a Danley dealer and love the products and performance, but I think at the budget level and appllication being discussed the LS2100Ps are a smart choice.

The JTR calculations I gave was based on the increase of speakers & not the increase of speakers plus power so really with the saved $2,500 (under his $10,000 budget but $3,500 savings from a pair of the Danley) he could get a QSC PL380 to reach the potential I mentioned & still come in on budget. If he wanted to really reach potential of the JTR Orbit Shifters subs then he could pick up a Crowm IT12000HD for around $3,500 which would be the exact amount of savings he would have saved from the cost of just a pair of the Danley subs. So for the cost of just a pair of Danley subs he could have four JTR Orbit Shifters plus an amp to power them all so the JTR are still a very good option.

*** Keep in mind that JTR offers the buy more save more policy http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/quotBuy-More-and-Save-Morequot-Program.-4655234 ***

[Incognito]

The JTR calculations I gave was based on the increase of speakers & not the increase of speakers plus power so really with the saved $2,500 (under his $10,000 budget but $3,500 savings from a pair of the Danley) he could get a QSC PL380 to reach the potential I mentioned & still come in on budget. If he wanted to really reach potential of the JTR Orbit Shifters subs then he could pick up a Crowm IT12000HD for around $3,500 which would be the exact amount of savings he would have saved from the cost of just a pair of the Danley subs. So for the cost of just a pair of Danley subs he could have four JTR Orbit Shifters plus an amp to power them all so the JTR are still a very good option.

*** Keep in mind that JTR offers the buy more save more policy http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/quotBuy-More-and-Save-Morequot-Program.-4655234 ***

So considering that you can only get four of the Yorkville LS2100Ps for the given $10,000 budget & the fact that even then they fall short in potential once compared to the JTR Orbitshifters (It would take all four of the Yorkville to equal the SPL of just a pair of the JTR subs) the JTR Orbitshifters are still the best option.

[audiopyle]

Actually four of the LS2100P come in well under budget even considering freight cost. They also come with Yorkville's 2 year no fault warranty on electronics & drivers, and 10 year cabinet warranty.

[Incognito]

Actually four of the LS2100P come in well under budget even considering freight cost. They also come with Yorkville's 2 year no fault warranty on electronics & drivers, and 10 year cabinet warranty.

I can't speak on what you sell them for but I was basing the pricing on the average of $2,300 I saw the LS2100P selling for so four at that price would be $9,200. At the given budget of the OP at $10,000 & the cost of four LS2100P, you're still in the price range of the JTR system I mentioned thus making it worth the while in stepping up to the higher performing JTR rig. Unless the savings is in the thousands for the four LS2100P that would make it so you can afford a couple more of the LS2100P subs then it's just worth the extra $$$ to go for the JTR system since it is still in his budget yet yields the best performance out the given subs mentioned thus far.

[audiopyle]

I don't think I would make a performance claim without actually comparing the two. The numbers cited are similar although stated differently. The Orbit Shifter page says 139dB "usable", while the Yorkville page says 135dB "continuous" and 144dB "peak". Stated frequency response of the JTR is -3dB @ 37 Hz, while Yorkville claims -3dB @ 32 Hz.

[Incognito]

I don't think I would make a performance claim without actually comparing the two. The numbers cited are similar although stated differently. The Orbit Shifter page says 139dB "usable", while the Yorkville page says 135dB "continuous" and 144dB "peak". Stated frequency response of the JTR is -3dB @ 37 Hz, while Yorkville claims -3dB @ 32 Hz.

JTR specs are stated as the real world available SPL (as been 3rd party verified) so you'll get that 139db as claimed, so 139db can be considered the continuous SPL rating which is 4db above the potential of the Yorkville. The coupling of those large horn paths shall make extension to the lower frequencies a none issue once all four of the Orbit Shifters are coupled thus enabling the Orbit Shifters to reach down to the lower 30hz region as well but will be able to do so at a higher SPL then the Yorkville can..

**EDIT**
Actually after pulling up the spec for the Yorkville LS2100P it looks like the 135db is actually the max SPL rating not the continuous rating thus widening the gap even further between the two subs in favor of the JTR.

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?id=213&cat=2&type=29

http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/manuals/omls800p.pdf

[unsafe8989]

That orbit shifter system sounds amazing something i would love to hear.

[audiopyle]

JTR specs are stated as the real world available SPL (as been 3rd party verified) so you'll get that 139db as claimed, so 139db can be considered the continuous SPL rating which is 4db above the potential of the Yorkville. The coupling of those large horn paths shall make extension to the lower frequencies a none issue once all four of the Orbit Shifters are coupled thus enabling the Orbit Shifters to reach down to the lower 30hz region as well but will be able to do so at a higher SPL then the Yorkville can..

**EDIT**
Actually after pulling up the spec for the Yorkville LS2100P it looks like the 135db is actually the max SPL rating not the continuous rating thus widening the gap even further between the two subs in favor of the JTR.

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?id=213&cat=2&type=29

http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/manuals/omls800p.pdf

The LS2100P spec is here:
http://yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=2&id=387

The JTR spec of 139 does not state at what frequency it achieves that level, nor whether it is sustainable, only that it is "usable".

[drzinc]

Orbit Shifters rearranges internal organs for free!

[Incognito]

The LS2100P spec is here:
http://yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=2&id=387

The JTR spec of 139 does not state at what frequency it achieves that level, nor whether it is sustainable, only that it is "usable".

Yes & that usable frequency range is 121hz to 37hz for a single sub (as you know this extends even further in multiples) so the reading is taken with in that frequency range. One thing Jeff has been very well noted for is stating real world spec for his cabinets as has been verified in various sub shootouts & 3rd party testing, he's actually hosting a listening party in April for anyone interested to hearing any of his designs first hand.

[on1sony]

Why don't you build 8 brand new Tuba60's? You will fill the 20,000sqft room with a thick bass.

[SAVAIRE]

Wow, incredible knowledge in this forum. I missed this so much! Thanks to everyone for the help so far! We are still deciding, but slightly leaning towards the JTR's or the Yorkville 2100P's. Our sound engineer, also my dad :lol: , is leaning towards the JTR's also. A concern mentioned with the 2100P's is that they are continuous 2400W, all of the power on a 20AMP breaker, and 3600W peak. Has anyone run into this problem? We run into mostly 20amps at our venues

[windspeed36]

Wow, incredible knowledge in this forum. I missed this so much! Thanks to everyone for the help so far! We are still deciding, but slightly leaning towards the JTR's or the Yorkville 2100P's. Our sound engineer, also my dad :lol: , is leaning towards the JTR's also. A concern mentioned with the 2100P's is that they are continuous 2400W, all of the power on a 20AMP breaker, and 3600W peak. Has anyone run into this problem? We run into mostly 20amps at our venues

Just depends how many 20amp breakers you have....

[SAVAIRE]

Just depends how many 20amp breakers you have....

We can get plenty, but based on the power handling, can't one of the Yorkville 2100P's pop the amp very easily? I understand some breakers can take loads much higher than 2400 for short periods of time and were designed that way for when appliances kick on. I'm not an electrician though, just thought 2400 was considered the max load for most 20A 120V circuits

[windspeed36]

You should only really load 80% of a circuit...

[Incognito]

Wow, incredible knowledge in this forum. I missed this so much! Thanks to everyone for the help so far! We are still deciding, but slightly leaning towards the JTR's or the Yorkville 2100P's. Our sound engineer, also my dad :lol: , is leaning towards the JTR's also. A concern mentioned with the 2100P's is that they are continuous 2400W, all of the power on a 20AMP breaker, and 3600W peak. Has anyone run into this problem? We run into mostly 20amps at our venues

Slight confusion on your part here, the amp delivers 2,400 watts to the speaker but it isn't drawing that much power from the wall. Based on the Yorkville manual (as posted in this thread a few times already) the amp module requires 12 amps from a 120 volt supply or 6 amps from a 220 volt supply for max power draw. Either way you would require one dedicated 20 amp service per LS2100P to deliver enough power for it's max draw however the amp only has a continuous draw of 6.67 amps so depending on what Yorkville spec as a continuous draw (in other words how often does the amp lean more to its' max draw in comparison to its' constant draw) you could potentially get away with two of the Yorkville amps per circuit or if you don't plan on really pushing the limits of the amps so that they keep the amperage draw below even the continuous draw then you may get way with more on a single circuit but to be on the safe side I would lean towards no more then two per circuit.

[Incognito]

You should only really load 80% of a circuit...

+1 as per the NEC electrical code.

[audiopyle]

As Incognito mentions above, the LS2100P will draw 12a on a 120v circuit during hard use. The 2400w amplifier rating is the power it is capable of delivering to the woofer continuously IF DRIVEN THAT HARD. In normal use with music program you will not use anywhere near that power unless you are driving the sub continuously into the limiter, a very bad practice. So if you have 20a circuits in the venue, you are probably quite safe running one LS2100P and at least one top on each circuit.

It is good that you are paying attention to power requirements, but keep in mind that power is an issue to address whether you choose to go with powered cabinets or racks of amplifiers. The big dog amps that are suggested to use with the passive cabinets mentioned in this thread often come with 30 amp cordsets, and some will only achieve full rated output on a 230v supply.

[audiopyle]

If you decide on passive subs, when you shop for the amps to power them be sure to find the "thermal/current" requirement spec sheet for the amp. That will give you the most accurate info regarding power requirements.

[SAVAIRE]

Slight confusing on your part here, the amp delivers 2,400 watts to the speaker but it isn't drawing that much power from the wall. Based on the Yorkville manual (as posted in this thread a few times already) the amp module requires 12 amps from a 120 volt supply or 6 amps from a 220 volt supply for max power draw. Either way you would require one dedicated 20 amp service per LS2100P to deliver enough power for it's max draw however the amp only has a continuous draw of 6.67 amps so depending on what Yorkville spec as a continuous draw (in other words how often does the amp lean more to its' max draw in comparison to its' constant draw) you could potentially get away with two of the Yorkville amps per circuit or if you don't plan on really pushing the limits of the amps so that they keep the amperage draw below even the continuous draw then you may get way with more on a single circuit but to be on the safe side I would lean towards no more then two per circuit.


As Incognito mentions above, the LS2100P will draw 12a on a 120v circuit during hard use. The 2400w amplifier rating is the power it is capable of delivering to the woofer continuously IF DRIVEN THAT HARD. In normal use with music program you will not use anywhere near that power unless you are driving the sub continuously into the limiter, a very bad practice. So if you have 20a circuits in the venue, you are probably quite safe running one LS2100P and at least one top on each circuit.

It is good that you are paying attention to power requirements, but keep in mind that power is an issue to address whether you choose to go with powered cabinets or racks of amplifiers. The big dog amps that are suggested to use with the passive cabinets mentioned in this thread often come with 30 amp cordsets, and some will only achieve full rated output on a 230v supply.

Cool. Realized that after posting and did a bit more research. Thanks for the correction :)

[Incognito]

It is good that you are paying attention to power requirements, but keep in mind that power is an issue to address whether you choose to go with powered cabinets or racks of amplifiers. The big dog amps that are suggested to use with the passive cabinets mentioned in this thread often come with 30 amp cordsets, and some will only achieve full rated output on a 230v supply.

The QSC PL380 is right at home one a 20 amp circuit, it only comes with a 30 amp plug because it's peak draw is above the 80% draw of a 20 amp circuit but still well below a 20 amp draw as a constant draw. This is why you see so many people running these off of as low as a 15 amp circuit but I would say dedicate at least a 20 amp circuit for this amp & you'll be fine.

[djfaceatl]

Maybe Im full of shit but I dont think that is enough of a budget to buy new for 25000 ft
Sorry to step on any toes but that is 5 basketball courts. And you all think 4 subs will properly provide the amount of bass needed
Sorry but IMO, you will need a minimum of 8 subs. And even with the Danleys, I do not think you will get away with less than 6
Im just sayin

[windspeed36]

Maybe Im full of shit but I dont think that is enough of a budget to buy new for 25000 ft
Sorry to step on any toes but that is 5 basketball courts. And you all think 4 subs will properly provide the amount of bass needed
Sorry but IMO, you will need a minimum of 8 subs. And even with the Danleys, I do not think you will get away with less than 6
Im just sayin I was sorta thinking the same thing... I'd be using 6 or 8 L'Acoustics SB28's or 6 Meyer 700HP's

For that size building your pretty much looking at tour grade equipment with tour grade electrical rigging

[Incognito]

Maybe Im full of shit but I dont think that is enough of a budget to buy new for 25000 ft
Sorry to step on any toes but that is 5 basketball courts. And you all think 4 subs will properly provide the amount of bass needed
Sorry but IMO, you will need a minimum of 8 subs. And even with the Danleys, I do not think you will get away with less than 6
Im just sayin

You would be right if he was looking to cover the entire venue but.....



Obviously we aren't expecting to rock the entire building, as we would need a major major production for that, but we are looking to rock out the front towards our stage, lighting, etc.
Rob Savaire

[windspeed36]

Here's 4 Meyer 700HP's (http://meyersound.com/products/concertseries/700hp/)at 1/3 Octave - 63Hz

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/4700hp.png/

[Incognito]

Here's 4 Meyer 700HP's (http://meyersound.com/products/concertseries/700hp/)at 1/3 Octave - 63Hz

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/4700hp.png/

Kinda blows that budget out the window don't you think?

[Incognito]

Why don't you build 8 brand new Tuba60's? You will fill the 20,000sqft room with a thick bass.

If the OP is up for a DIY build then yes that's a great option & he would save plenty of cash in the process.

8TNjr91FxaA

[windspeed36]

Kinda blows that budget out the window don't you think?

I wasn't using a Meyer sub as an example. I was using 4 dual 18" 1200w sub with a continuous power rating of 110dB as an example

[Incognito]

I wasn't using a Meyer sub as an example. I was using 4 dual 18" 1200w sub with a continuous power rating of 110dB as an example

OK sorry, just that you mentioned & gave a link to the Meyer sub but the image you tried posting didn't come through.

[windspeed36]

OK sorry, just that you mentioned & gave a link to the Meyer sub but the image you tried posting didn't come through.

Can't seem to put it as an attachment here - heres the link - http://www.mediafire.com/?p1sb8lljc0yk93s

[Incognito]

Can't seem to put it as an attachment here - heres the link - http://www.mediafire.com/?p1sb8lljc0yk93s

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/507/4700hp.jpg

[audiopyle]

Maybe Im full of shit but I dont think that is enough of a budget to buy new for 25000 ft
Sorry to step on any toes but that is 5 basketball courts. And you all think 4 subs will properly provide the amount of bass needed
Sorry but IMO, you will need a minimum of 8 subs. And even with the Danleys, I do not think you will get away with less than 6
Im just sayin

It totally depends on the event. Many do not require nauseating bass levels. I have covered 25,000 sq ft rooms more than adequately using 6 - LA400s and didn't really have to push them hard. Did a 20,000 sq ft room with 1300 attendance in October using just 2 RCF TT26A subs, and again they were plenty. If this were live sound I would probably double up.

[SAVAIRE]

Maybe Im full of shit but I dont think that is enough of a budget to buy new for 25000 ft
Sorry to step on any toes but that is 5 basketball courts. And you all think 4 subs will properly provide the amount of bass needed
Sorry but IMO, you will need a minimum of 8 subs. And even with the Danleys, I do not think you will get away with less than 6
Im just sayin

Yep, you're right. I love bass the way you're talking about :) Eventually we would want two stacks of 8 subs on each side, but we need a start for now. Like I said, I just want to rock out the front first. The system and sound we have our sights set on will handle rooms double to triple the size. We finally realized that we need to build a scalable system and stop buying bits and pieces of sound here and there. Everything from here on out that we buy we must be able to use for bigger events!

[GaFFLe]

At less then your minimum budget of $8,000 you can pick up four of these http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/orbit-shifter/ that will net you the same performance as a pair of the Danley DBH-218LC...
I doubt it... http://soundforums.net/varsity/1762-new-danley-sub.html

"The biggest difference-sonically- is that the DBH-218 has more "impact/punch etc" than a pair of TH118's. Assuming you are talking about the DBH218 and not the DBH218LC. The LC version walks all over a pair and probably 4 TH118s down low (say below 30Hz)."

The Orbit Shifters, although very good, don't trump the TH-118's so I doubt a pair of them could hang with a single DBH-218LC or even the regular DBH-218.

OS pair = 354 lbs.
DBH-218LC single unit = 277 lbs.

The LC's specs remain to be seen. The DBH's also go lower in multiples too but the price is the biggest difference. I've never heard the Orbit Shifters but I have heard the TH-118's and DBH-218 (not the LC version). In reality, all of our babble is merely speculation because no one here has seen or even read of a head-to-head comparison.

[GaFFLe]

Double post

[Incognito]

I doubt it... http://soundforums.net/varsity/1762-new-danley-sub.html

"The biggest difference-sonically- is that the DBH-218 has more "impact/punch etc" than a pair of TH118's. Assuming you are talking about the DBH218 and not the DBH218LC. The LC version walks all over a pair and probably 4 TH118s down low (say below 30Hz)."

The Orbit Shifters, although very good, don't trump the TH-118's so I doubt a pair of them could hang with a single DBH-218LC perhaps just a regular model DBH-218.

OS pair = 354 lbs.
DBH-218LC single unit = 277 lbs.

The LC's specs remain to be seen. The DBH's also go lower in multiples. The OS's low price is obviously the biggest difference.
SPL
The Danley DBH-218 has a maximum continuous output of 141db so a pair of them with the same power applied will net you 144db, the JTR Orbit Shifter is 139db each so four of them with the same applied power will net you 145db so basically a tie in continuous output using the same applied power. Now lets take a look at each being powered to RMS, the Danley DBH-218LC pair will get you 147db while four JTR Orbit Shifters will get you 151db so the win would go to the JTR Orbit Shifters by 4db.

Frequency
Now lets take frequency range into consideration, with the OP stating he is playing primarily house and dance music, with some top 40. With that in mind the Danley DBH-218LC has a -3db of 34hz with a pair being able to get you a little closer to the 30hz region While a single JTR Orbit Shifter getting you down to 37hz & a cluster of four also getting you in the same region of 30hz but really both of these subs perform beyond the requirements of the OP in the frequency department so in match up their a tie.

Weight
I don't know about you but Subs this large I lift one by one & considering the DanleyDBH-218 weighs in 117 pound more then the Orbit Shifters each the win goes to the Orbit Shifter.

Cost
For the price of just a pair of the Danley DBH-218 alone with no amp or processing you can get four JTR Orbit Shifters with a Crown 12,000 watt amp that has a built in DSP or four JTR Orbit Shifters, a QSC PL380 & still have an extra $1,000 left over for a decent stand alone DSP so the clear winner in this department is the JTR Orbit Shifters.

Not sure if you've been keeping count but that's JTR Orbit Shifters FTW!

Absolutely no firm info on the LC final version has been released since the product is yet to be released so it makes no sense speculating on something that isn't even on the market yet besides, the extra frequency range it offers is not required by the OP once you look at the genre he spins. Truth be told once you're in the 30hz region you're already in a frequency range that most people don't require.

[SAVAIRE]

I'm starting to lean towards the JTR Orbit Shifters after that post and reading a bit more about them.

My dad is saying to go with these:

http://www.sonicspeaker.com/18w.htm

Anyone ever heard of them!?

[monomer]

I'm starting to lean towards the JTR Orbit Shifters after that post and reading a bit more about them.

My dad is saying to go with these:

http://www.sonicspeaker.com/18w.htm

Anyone ever heard of them!?

70's called

they want their sub design back.



I would go with orbit shifters....

[SAVAIRE]

70's called

they want their sub design back.



I would go with orbit shifters....


LOL! He loves the W-Bin design and was saying they are cheap, etc. I agree though. Looking into them this week

[unsafe8989]

LOL! He loves the W-Bin design and was saying they are cheap, etc. I agree though. Looking into them this week

Whatever you do get please post pictures and videos we all love speaker porn!:lol:

[Incognito]

I'm starting to lean towards the JTR Orbit Shifters after that post and reading a bit more about them.

My dad is saying to go with these:

http://www.sonicspeaker.com/18w.htm

Anyone ever heard of them!?
Your money, your call however a little fore warning, it's far from a good move for what you wish to do.

Sonic are lower entry level speakers (not even closIe to the class of other subs mentioned in this thread thus far) that someone with a small budget, small venues & lowered expectations would go for (even the there are far better options available). They use designs from other companies, worse yet their based on outdated designs that just aren't too good in the first place. What you'll get with these is a none musical single note boomy type bass that will not go too low (not that the genre you plan to spin requires too much extension). You'll find yourself replacing drivers in short order with these then you'll find yourself questioning their build quality along with their performance once you get past that cozy "new toy" feeling & start to really getting subjective to what they really are doing. I used to own a number of these W bins (along with a number of other designs over the years) back in the 80's to early 90's from various manufacturers (Carvin, Fane, AS&T plus a couple DIY variations), they all performed the same with a serious lack of sub bass but a strong presence around 60hz to 90hz (thus the reason I ended up using these designs as mid bass cabinets instead.

If you want to cover the size venues you mentioned, maintain good sound quality yet come in cheaper the your earlier stated budget then I would suggest you take into consideration a DIY design such as those offered by Bill Fitzmaurice from www.billfitzmaurice.com ( i am thinking something along the lines of a T39 or T48 serving your needs well) you may even be able to find an authorized builder near you that will be able to work with in your budget if you don't feel up to the build yourself.

There are other options still available but even the high end subs we mentioned thus far in this thread would be working pretty hard for the given task but at least they have the build quality to withstand the constant abuse.

[Johnnotestine]

I'm almost in the same boat as you, but looking to buy one sub now and one later.

My top choices after some great advice on this forum are the Danley TH-118 and the JTR Orbit Shifters.

Leaning towards Danley because I am more familiar with them; however, still hoping to hear the JTR before I buy.

I do know that Danley, Meyer, & JTR make the Sonics you listed look like toys.

[SAVAIRE]

I'm almost in the same boat as you, but looking to buy one sub now and one later.

My top choices after some great advice on this forum are the Danley TH-118 and the JTR Orbit Shifters.

Leaning towards Danley because I am more familiar with them; however, still hoping to hear the JTR before I buy.

I do know that Danley, Meyer, & JTR make the Sonics you listed look like toys.


Cool. Main thing is we want everything to be scalable, which everything that was listed is. Still a hard decision though

[Incognito]

I'm almost in the same boat as you, but looking to buy one sub now and one later.

My top choices after some great advice on this forum are the Danley TH-118 and the JTR Orbit Shifters.

Leaning towards Danley because I am more familiar with them; however, still hoping to hear the JTR before I buy.

I do know that Danley, Meyer, & JTR make the Sonics you listed look like toys.

April 21st JTR are having an open house listening party if your in his area

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/JTR-Speakers-Open-House-Saturday-April-21st-5728713

That's only a few days off from my birthday & I am tempted to treat myself to trip there followed up with a few days in Vegas. Hmm tempting.

[GaFFLe]

I'm almost in the same boat as you, but looking to buy one sub now and one later.

My top choices after some great advice on this forum are the Danley TH-118 and the JTR Orbit Shifters.

Leaning towards Danley because I am more familiar with them; however, still hoping to hear the JTR before I buy.

I do know that Danley, Meyer, & JTR make the Sonics you listed look like toys.

If money were not an issue, I'd easily say go with the Danley TH-118's; however, the JTR OS's price honestly makes it hard to resist. Being in Alaska, shipping of such heavy pieces has got to come into your equation.

[GaFFLe]

...My dad is saying to go with these:

http://www.sonicspeaker.com/18w.htm

Anyone ever heard of them!?
Your dad doesn't like you, does he? :lol:

j/k :)

[Incognito]

Cool. Main thing is we want everything to be scalable, which everything that was listed is. Still a hard decision though

For an even more scalable system at the expense of a little SPL, you could go with eight JTR Growlers plus either of the amps I mentioned earlier & would still come in around your budget.

You also still have the JBL SRX series as an option.

[Johnnotestine]

If money were not an issue, I'd easily say go with the Danley TH-118's; however, the JTR OS's price honestly makes it hard to resist. Being in Alaska, shipping of such heavy pieces has got to come into your equation.

Shipping is always a concern (frustration?) for Alaskans. The worst is dealing with sellers that won't ship here at all.

Danley wins on this front for me. We have a local dealer that does church installs, hopefully I can sneak a sub in on his large order.

I would love to hear that JTR demo. I hope he posts a YouTube vid.

[Johnnotestine]

For an even more scalable system at the expense of a little SPL, you could go with eight JTR Growlers plus either of the amps I mentioned earlier & would still come in around your budget.

You also still have the JBL SRX series as an option.
I've thought about buying many TH-Mini's to accomplish the same thing, but how many would equal a single 118 and would you be able to go lower by adding more? As low as a 118?

I guess the same would apply to multiple growlers vs. an orbit shifter.

[Incognito]

Well having a Danley dealer near you is a plus, see how much he'll charge you for shipping then cross reference it to what it would cost to have something shipped from JTR. I know I had to have my JTR system (six 2010 JTR Growlers & a pair of 2010 JTR Triple 8x) land shipped across the States to New Jersey before then having it shipped via ocean freight to me in Bermuda followed by then hiring a truck to deliver it all to my house & the shipping wasn't bad at all.

[Incognito]

>>>>>oops<<<<<

[audiopyle]

I've thought about buying many TH-Mini's to accomplish the same thing, but how many would equal a single 118 and would you be able to go lower by adding more? As low as a 118?

I guess the same would apply to multiple growlers vs. an orbit shifter.

Most of the Danley subs are what they refer to as a "tapped Horn" design. They will couple for added spl but it does not lower the frequency response below what a single cab will produce.

[Incognito]

Most of the Danley subs are what they refer to as a "tapped Horn" design. They will couple for added spl but it does not lower the frequency response below what a single cab will produce.

Interesting, I didn't know this about tapped horns. I thought they benefited from both increased SPL as well as frequency extension as normal horns (such as the JTR offerings) did from coupling.

[Johnnotestine]

Most of the Danley subs are what they refer to as a "tapped Horn" design. They will couple for added spl but it does not lower the frequency response below what a single cab will produce.
Thanks for the info Mike. So will coupling Mini's and growlers achieve about the same increase in SPL, or is that increase effected as well by type/design?

[Incognito]

Thanks for the info Mike. So will coupling Mini's and growlers achieve about the same increase in SPL, or is that increase effected as well by type/design?

The increase in SPL will be the same between the two designs but it seems coupling of the Mini's will not have the same extension of the lower frequencies as the JTR Growlers would benefit from coupling.

[GaFFLe]

A TH-mini is impressive for its size but wouldn't be a high option for me. I compared one with my former QSC HPR 181i. The TH-mini was just as loud but didn't hit as low.

[GaFFLe]

I'm almost in the same boat as you, but looking to buy one sub now and one later. My top choices after some great advice on this forum are the Danley TH-118 and the JTR Orbit Shifters. Leaning towards Danley because I am more familiar with them; however, still hoping to hear the JTR before I buy. I do know that Danley, Meyer, & JTR make the Sonics you listed look like toys.
I've always wondered what the breakdown between these two behemoths of sound would be, so I've attempted to eyeball and break down the frequency response curves into easy-to-read values:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7067/7020988235_c9143b378d.jpg

Based on a one-to-one comparison, the Danley TH-118 appears to be much louder (up to 5dB) in the 30-40Hz range and noticeably louder, by almost up to 3dB, in the 50-60Hz range. All other ranges are essentially a wash except from 95-100Hz where the Orbit Shifter is louder by up to 3dB... but anything above 90Hz is usually never seen by my systems as I cross over my subs at 80 or 85Hz. The original graphs below are shown measured at 2Watts/1M. I've adjusted each speaker's measurement value down by -3dB to account for this:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7111/6872940048_1a9d03514d.jpg http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6036/6872946510_c778162e55_c.jpg
You can find a better looking response graph on Danley's website as they are pretty up front with their speaker specifications. As mentioned earlier, the JTR Orbit Shifters are quite a solution based on their price. There aren't many subs out there that'll hang with either one. I wanted the best I could get my hands on which is why I chose the Danleys...

[BillESC]

+1 on the KV2 EX1.8 Down to 30dB at -3dB - 131dB continuous. MAP $ 3769.00

[Incognito]

JTR = $$

Danley = $$$$$$$$$$$$$


Performance to $$$ = JTR, FTW!



Basically from 90hz to 40hz it's basically a tie,

100hz it's the Orbit Shifter,

35hz & below it's the TH-118

Keeping in mind that tapped horns don't benefit from frequency extension from coupling while the JTR does & that you can afford to more Orbit Shifters for the money in comparison to the Danley, you'll gain your extension from a dollar to dollar stand point. So the gain the Danley gains in a one to one comparison it in turn loses in a dollar to dollar comparison with the JTR closing the gap. You can get three of the Danley TH-118 for the given budget yet you can get five of the Orbit Shifters for the same given budget (but four is all that's needed to match the extension), the mutual coupling of four Orbit Shifters makes it a tie below 35hz & still comes in $1,922.80 cheaper then three of the TH-118 but better yet $2,403.80 under the given budget.

[GaFFLe]

Sounds like speculation. The money spent is a no brainer but show a graph of this added extension with the mutual coupling of multiple Orbit Shifters.

[Incognito]

Show me a graph of the mutual coupling of four Orbit Shifter vs. four TH-118's.

No need, since it's already been established that that the tapped horns only gain SPL not extension from coupling & by the same merit of mutual coupling the Orbit Shifter gains the exact same SPL gains as the TH-118 but the Orbit Shifter DOES gain frequency extension from mutual coupling.

[Phil Lewandowski]

Hey everyone,

Yet another "Help me choose what subs" forum! Right now we are looking to scrap our existing bass and sell what we have to go with a more uniform bottom end. We have a decent budget, $8000 - $10,000, play primarily house and dance music, with some top 40. Our normal venues range from 15,000 - 25,000 sqft and even bigger at some events.


Rob Savaire

Hi Rob,

Best value mid-sized sub I've come across is still the SRX728's; unfortunately they have went up in price slightly in the past year. I owned both the JTR Growlers and SRX718's for a while, and ended up with the SRX718's edging them out for best small value sub.

4 JBL SRX728 - $5800
2 Crown iTech6000 - $3000
Grand Total: $8800

8 of the JBL 2268 18" drivers will move a lot of air. (2268 are drivers in the SRX subs) I've personally only used 4 at one time, and it already moves a lot of air. And honestly if you are doing mostly house, dance, and top 40 music; you will like the punch that comes from a well designed 18" direct radiator.



Take Care,
Phil


The Danley subs are definitely a step above the SRX728's but, the value goes way down because of the price.

[GaFFLe]

JTR = $$

Danley = $$$$$$$$$$$$$


Performance to $$$ = JTR, FTW!



Basically from 90hz to 40hz it's basically a tie,

100hz it's the Orbit Shifter,

35hz & below it's the TH-118
...
So do you play your subs at 100Hz... or anywhere near 100Hz?

[sss18734]

EDIT: Ooops. Didn't realize this thread had this many pages. Disregard.

[Incognito]

So do you play your subs at 100Hz... or anywhere near 100Hz?

Umm yeah, 100hz & below is not an unexpected cross over point for a sub & once you factor in the rest of my post that you conveniently edited out you'll see it ends up being an all around win win for the Orbit Shifter in comparison.

[Phil Lewandowski]

Basically from 90hz to 40hz it's basically a tie,

100hz it's the Orbit Shifter,

35hz & below it's the TH-118



Looking at their respective responses here is what I get at 1W/1M:

Freq-----OS-----TH118
30------90dB----98dB
40-----100dB---102dB
50------99dB---105dB
60-----100dB---105dB
70-----103dB---105dB
80-----103dB---105dB
90-----103dB---106dB


(I have a question into Jeff if the response was in fact taken in 2 ohms mode at 2.83v, which would line up with the 103dB stated sensitivity.)
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/Orbit-Shifter-subwoofer-4700487


But looking at these numbers, the TH118 has a slight advantage over the OS, ranging from 2-8dB. But again we have to consider that the TH118 is at least 2.5-3.5 times more expensive than the OS. The big advantage of the TH118 is that the tapped horn is designed to get all the extension out of a horn in one fell swoop at the smallest size possible; which is why they also don't exhibit a slight LF bump in multiples since the extension is already there in a single. So if extension and size are your main concerns the Tapped horn is great, but of course expensive from Danley.



But honestly I still would pick the SRX728 as the go-to value sub in that size range. The Growler and SRX718 was neck and neck in measured output (Both in the 126-129dB range), so that would point towards the OS and SRX728 being neck and neck as well, but of course I don't have actual numbers like I do of the SRX718 and Growler.


~Phil

[GaFFLe]

Looking at their respective responses here is what I get at 1W/1M:

Freq-----OS-----TH118
30------90dB----98dB
40-----100dB---102dB
50------99dB---105dB
60-----100dB---105dB
70-----103dB---105dB
80-----103dB---105dB
90-----103dB---106dB

This shows an even wider margin by the TH-118. I had a hard time trying to read the OS's graph so I gave it the benefit of the doubt.



(I have a question into Jeff if the response was in fact taken in 2 ohms mode at 2.83v, which would line up with the 103dB stated sensitivity.)
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/Orbit-Shifter-subwoofer-4700487
Hmmm... interesting, you've been waiting since 2009 for a response. So if that response curve were measured in 2-ohm mode, you'd need to reduce that Orbit Shifter response graph by -6dB per curve point? I didn't know a single OS was capable of running at a 2-ohm load.


But looking at these numbers, the TH118 has a slight advantage over the OS, ranging from 2-8dB. But again we have to consider that the TH118 is at least 2.5-3.5 times more expensive than the OS. The big advantage of the TH118 is that the tapped horn is designed to get all the extension out of a horn in one fell swoop at the smallest size possible; which is why they also don't exhibit a slight LF bump in multiples since the extension is already there in a single. So if extension and size are your main concerns the Tapped horn is great, but of course expensive from Danley.

JTR = $$

Danley = $$$$$$$$$$$$$


Performance to $$$ = JTR, FTW!
One thing people generally do is look at the upfront costs only and forget about brand recognition and re$ale value. Yes a Lexus can cost more than a Volvo up front but when it's time to upgrade and sell it, guess which one is gonna retain its value better and be more likely sold...

Better resale value and possibility of selling it in the open market = Danley FTW!

I'm huge on stability. To that point, it seems as if JTR speakers are constantly being 'tweaked' in some sort of way. Not to say that's a negative but I'd hate to purchase a $1900 sub and the next year, they've modified it in some sort of way for the better. I'm a believer that if it was fully developed from the start, there would be no need for constant tweaking or integral improvements. (ie: The highly desired Orbit Shifter grill which isn't compatible with older models w/o self-done wood work and dremeling or the several versions of the Growler) If I lived in the Illinois area, I'd probably be an OS owner knowing the manufacturer was close by. I also hear Jeff is good people and good with support. I'm close to Danley so they definitely were my choice and they've been great with support.



But honestly I still would pick the SRX728 as the go-to value sub in that size range. The Growler and SRX718 was neck and neck in measured output (Both in the 126-129dB range), so that would point towards the OS and SRX728 being neck and neck as well, but of course I don't have actual numbers like I do of the SRX718 and Growler.


~Phil
Can't argue with the SRX728. Sold at local retailers, they're a bargain at their price point and re$ale + brand recognition is a no brainer. They may be even more of a go-to choice considering the newer STX828 model is 13 lbs. heavier and doesn't go as low... the discontinued SRX728's should come down in price too.

What do you think of its replacement... more power handling, castor options and about 2 dB max SPL louder? THere aren't any response curve graphs on the new model yet to approximate how they perform compared to the older model.

[Phil Lewandowski]

[SIZE=2]

Hmmm... interesting, you've been waiting since 2009 for a response. So if that response curve were measured in 2-ohm mode, you'd need to reduce that Orbit Shifter response graph by -6dB per curve point? I didn't know a single OS was capable of running at a 2-ohm load.


I actually just posted that response this morning, so hopefully Jeff gets back soon. But ya, that it was measured in 2 ohm mode with 2.83v makes the most sense, sense it hangs around 107-109dB, and on the product page it is rated at 103dB 1W/1M.




One thing people generally do is look at the upfront costs only and forget about brand recognition and re$ale value. Yes a Lexus can cost more than a Volvo up front but when it's time to upgrade and sell it, guess which one is gonna retain its value better and be more likely sold...

Better resale value and possibility of selling it in the open market = Danley FTW!


Exactly, buy once cry once. The Growlers do seem to be holding their value pretty well right now, as I sold at pair of 2010 Growlers for $1300 after paying $1800 for them. (Might have even been able to $1400 for them since the price for 2 right now is $2000.)

Although, I have a good feeling I would be able to get about $600-700 a piece for my SRX718's that I paid $800 for, since it is so hard to find them on the used market. I can only hope the market gets flooded with SRX718 and SRX728 cause I would love to pick up 2 SRX728 and a SRX718. ;)



What do you think of its replacement... more power handling, castor options and about 2 dB max SPL louder? THere aren't any response curve graphs on the new model yet to approximate how they perform compared to the older model.


Yeah its hard to say right now, and really we will have to wait until some get out into the wild and find out the real world performance. Because the two big things that the SRX subs, and series in general, had going for them was their weight and their very low power compression. Power compression is something we will have to find out once the subs get out there. The 2268 driver in the subs was a beastly driver so that will be hard to beat. Sad that neo has gone up so much...


~Phil

[GaFFLe]

You've sold your Growlers and you're thinking of selling your SRX's... what's your next set of speakers... more JTRs, the newer JBL's or something else? I remember you having some Yorkville U15P's for tops in the past.

[Phil Lewandowski]

You've sold your Growlers and you're thinking of selling your SRX's... what's your next set of speakers... more JTRs, the newer JBL's or something else? I remember you having some Yorkville U15P's for tops in the past.

Ha, no no, not selling the SRX718's. (Just was thinking what I could get for them.) Those have been my workhorse subs for the better part of 3 years without one problem. And I normally only need to bring 2 of them out to 95% of the gigs I do. Its great the low end you can get from 2 small, lightweight 18" subs.


And the U15's are still my workhorse tops. Honestly, for a similar price I haven't found something that gives any big upgrade compared to the SRX718's or U15's. (The SRX718's especially, but if the Mackie HD1531's wouldn't have had the issues they did, they would have given the U15's a run, besides the con of the weight of the HD1531's.) The SRX722, SRX725, and QRx212 would give a slight upgrade in output but really wouldn't be worth the upgrade as it would be a 1/2 step up, not a whole step up.

If I want more high output, I really need to go to the next step of tops which would put me in the ~$1600-3000 range, which I am not in that market of gigs right now, and don't plan to. (Although how much would I love a pair of KF650's and UX8800...)



~Phil


*Wow how much the KF650z's have shot up in price. $200 over the past year and a half.

[Incognito]

109db 2.83 volt outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j123/racingxtc7/ObitShifterFR.jpg

with 103db being the common ground plane on the SPL chart thus the product page giving you the spec of Frequency +/- 3db 37-121hz. However you can clearly see there's up to 6db above spec of activity going on above the stated spec for most of the chart.

[Phil Lewandowski]

109db 2.83 volt outdoors, ground plane, 1 meter

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j123/racingxtc7/ObitShifterFR.jpg

Exactly, that's the link that I listed, but the OS has a 2 ohm or 8 ohm mode. 1.41v at 2 ohm is 1W. So you would need to shift the graph down 6dB. The site lists the sensitivity at 103dB, so I highly doubt this measured OS was in 8 ohm mode, or Jeff is massively underrating it.


~Phil

[Incognito]

Exactly, that's the link that I listed, but the OS has a 2 ohm or 8 ohm mode. 1.41v at 2 ohm is 1W. So you would need to shift the graph down 6dB. The site lists the sensitivity at 103dB, so I highly doubt this measured OS was in 8 ohm mode, or Jeff is massively underrating it.


~Phil
Hmm always thought you rate the sensitivity of a speaker by it's most common point. Besides You yourself have in the past said Jeff usually goes on the side of real world spec thus lists his specs accordingly (though I have noticed one spec sheet where he also included a peak rating along with the real world rating). Jeff stated that he applied 2.83volts wich is in line with a 8 ohm driver @ 1W for the Orbit Shifter Spec.

The Spec given for the TH-118 is 2.83 volts into 4 ohms (wouldn't that be 2 watts applied? thus having to shave 3db off of the final figures?) outdoors in half space referenced from the actual measurement of 28.3 volts into 4 ohms @ 10M.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/TH%20118%20spec%20sheet.pdf


Either way it's a none issue since the Orbit Shifter is available in both a 8 ohm as well as a 2 ohm option so it's wouldn't be like the option wasn't given.

[GaFFLe]

...

Either way it's a none issue since the Orbit Shifter is available in both a 8 ohm as well as a 2 ohm option so it's wouldn't be like the option wasn't given.
Here's where I'm getting lost... I've never heard of a 2-ohm Pro-audio cabinet unless it used multiple drivers (aka: Danley DBH-218(LC)) or in the case of car audio where I think I've seen 1-ohm speakers.

What do you gain when you create a product at such a ohm load? Don't you limit its uses because most amplifiers are not suitable to drive such loads (2-ohms and less)? You lose versatility because you can't run your cabinets in series with a pair of 2-ohm speakers per side... unless you're running Powersoft or other 1-ohm capable and expensive high-end amps.

[Incognito]

Here's where I'm getting lost... I've never heard of a 2-ohm Pro-audio cabinet unless it used multiple drivers (aka: Danley DBH-218(LC)) or in the case of car audio where I think I've seen 1-ohm speakers.

What do you gain when you create a product at such a ohm load? Don't you limit its uses because most amplifiers are not suitable to drive such loads (2-ohms and less)? You lose versatility because you can't run your cabinets in series with a pair of 2-ohm speakers per side... unless you're running Powersoft or other 1-ohm capable and expensive high-end amps.
The Orbit Shifter can handle up to 4,000 watts program so if you have a amp that can deliver that into 2 ohms per channel you can run one OS per channel. http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/orbit-shifter/

It's an option left open to the end buyer, there are applications for it.

[Phil Lewandowski]

Hmm always thought you rate the sensitivity of a speaker by it's most common point. Besides You yourself have in the past said Jeff usually goes on the side of real world spec thus lists his specs accordingly (though I have noticed one spec sheet where he also included a peak rating along with the real world rating).

Yes Jeff does err more on the side of real world specs. That is why when he lists the OS as a sensitivity of 103dB, it does not line up with this graph above that he posted on the JTR forum, meaning that this 2.83v was most likely not sent into a 8 ohm nominal load. Usually when picking out a sensitivity, you need to get a graph where you have the equivalent of 1W/1M and then find a good average throughout its normal bandpass.



Jeff stated that he applied 2.83volts wich is in line with a 8 ohm driver @ 1W for the Orbit Shifter Spec.


Exactly, if the OS was 8 ohm nominal load at the time of measurement that would be 1W/1M, but from this specs page the OS is either 2 or 8 ohm. If he indeed took that measurement at 8 ohm, the spec page should list closer to 107-108dB sensitivity, not 103dB. That is why it makes sense that you just drop down the graph about 6dB for running 2.83v into 2 ohms instead of 8.



The Spec given for the TH-118 is 2.83 volts into 4 ohms (wouldn't that be 2 watts applied? thus having to shave 3db off of the final figures?) outdoors in half space referenced from the actual measurement of 28.3 volts into 4 ohms @ 10M.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/TH%20118%20spec%20sheet.pdf



Exactly, that's why if you look at my numbers they are 3dB lower than the published chart. (Since it is 2W over 1W, so 3dB is a doubling of power) I have no issue with anyone using a voltage that isn't exactly 1W into the nominal load, but as long as you list the exact voltage, distance, and nominal impedance of the measured box it is easy to figure out 1W/1M.


But yeah, either way the OS is a very nice box from what I've heard. I haven't heard as much lately from the pro audio crowd on other forums that I locate so I will have to keep my eye out for that.



~Phil

[Phil Lewandowski]

Here's where I'm getting lost... I've never heard of a 2-ohm Pro-audio cabinet unless it used multiple drivers (aka: Danley DBH-218(LC)) or in the case of car audio where I think I've seen 1-ohm speakers.

What do you gain when you create a product at such a ohm load? Don't you limit its uses because most amplifiers are not suitable to drive such loads (2-ohms and less)? You lose versatility because you can't run your cabinets in series with a pair of 2-ohm speakers per side... unless you're running Powersoft or other 1-ohm capable and expensive high-end amps.

Many times that means that there are multiple drivers, or even just multiple voice coils on a single driver. I don't know which Jeff used if there is more than one driver in the OS. (My guess is it is several VC)

On why one would have the option, even though it is nice to stay away from 2 ohm loads, there are many pro audio amps that drive a 2 ohm load without any issue. And since the OS has such a high power rating, it makes it much easier to have an amp that can get full performance from it. Like hanging an OS off of each side of a QSC PL380 would provide up to 3500-4000 watts per sub, which would be perfect. If running in 8 ohms, you would either need a massive amp in stereo, or 2 decently sized bridged amps. So really just provides flexibility in power them.


~Phil

[Incognito]

Exactly, that's why if you look at my numbers they are 3dB lower than the published chart. (Since it is 2W over 1W, so 3dB is a doubling of power) I have no issue with anyone using a voltage that isn't exactly 1W into the nominal load, but as long as you list the exact voltage, distance, and nominal impedance of the measured box it is easy to figure out 1W/1M.



~Phil
Doesn't add up since the graph on the product page lists the exact spec found on the very same product page http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/TH%20118%20spec%20sheet.pdf

It says sensitivity of 108db, the chart shows 108db, the peak sensitivity in the spec says 114db, the chart shows 114db, so really there has been no deduction thus the spec should be 3db down from what it is listed as.

***EDIT***
Never mind, had to re-read your post
if you look at my numbers

[Incognito]

Well looks like the stated sensitivity for the Orbit Shifter is on the conservative side so no need to be subtracting from the posted spec but actually potentially will require adding to the listed spec.



The 2010 was rated 4 ohm and 106db/1watt.

The 2011 and newer provide a much easier load on the amplifier but are 1.5db less sensitive. The 103db rated for the 2011 and newer is very conservative and will be adjusted once third party measurements have been taken.

[Phil Lewandowski]

Well looks like the stated sensitivity for the Orbit Shifter is on the conservative side so no need to be subtracting from the posted spec but actually potentially will require adding to the listed spec.

That makes sense, so then just add 1-2dB to the numbers I posted earlier. So the Danley advantage is actually; even above 70hz and then 3-6dB below 70hz. (Except around 40hz where they draw even for a bit)


**Updated Comparison*
Freq-----OS-----TH118
30------92dB----98dB
40-----102dB---102dB
50------101dB---105dB
60-----102dB---105dB
70-----105dB---105dB
80-----105dB---105dB
90-----105dB---106dB



~Phil

[ampnation]

Savaire,

I saw a mobile DJ on DJF 1.0 talking about his system that covered the types of venues you're talking about and IIRC he was able to pretty much fill the room for about $10k by using Bill Fitzmaurice subs, Behringer EP series amps and a DSP. For a mobile DJ who might be doing small weddings or such, I don't think the BFM subs are gonna give one what they want that they couldn't get for the same price with commercial offerings. But when you start talking 4 or more, they benefit from the coupling both for SPL and bass extension. Check it out if you're willing to DIY. Some of his are supposedly fairly easy to build even if you have limited woodworking skills.

Or, if you have greater woodworking skills, another horn loaded design for DIY'ers is the LAB subwoofer. check out Pro Sound Web for more details. The LAB is I believe the only DIY sub that shows up on many touring riders and if you build it yourself you could save significant $$.

Part of the reason I mention these is you trying to get the best bang for buck, but also because horn loaded subs will have higher effective sensitivity due to the horn loading if I understand it correctly. The driver can still take the same amount of power, but the horn enclosure acts as a pre-amp if you will, giving you a higher effective sensitivity.

I'm a novice at this stuff compared to the likes of Phil L. and Mike @ audiopyle so they'll probably shoot holes all through this theory. Just saying I've seen it done and the guy's claims seemed to have survived the vetting process. You know how that goes. Someone comes online and makes outlandish claims like, "My Gemini speakers can outperform your SRX's" and they're immediately seized upon by those who know better.

[Incognito]

That makes sense, so then just add 1-2dB to the numbers I posted earlier. So the Danley advantage is actually; even above 70hz and then 3-6dB below 70hz. (Except around 40hz where they draw even for a bit)


**Updated Comparison*
Freq-----OS-----TH118
30------92dB----98dB
40-----102dB---102dB
50------101dB---105dB
60-----102dB---105dB
70-----105dB---105dB
80-----105dB---105dB
90-----105dB---106dB



~Phil

Still not accurate since the actual figures haven't been posted yet & the fact that Jeff himself admits to the figures being on the modest side so you really can't put a solid figure to anything yet other then to say it's better then what it's spec to be which is already very good.

On top of that since the tapped horn will not gain any frequency extension from coupling the gap in the lower frequencies become a none issue as I stated before since the Orbit Shifter is a traditional folded horn & does gain in the lower frequencies from couplings. Once you start comparing multiples the gains from a one to one comparison disappears & the over all performance then starts to favour the Orbit Shifters more, then once you factor in the $$$ difference the Orbit Shifter shines even more.

[Phil Lewandowski]

Still not accurate since the actual figures haven't been posted yet & the fact that Jeff himself admits to the figures being on the modest side so you really can't put a solid figure to anything yet other then to say it's better then what it's spec to be which is already very good.

On top of that since the tapped horn will not gain any frequency extension from coupling the gap in the lower frequencies become a none issue as I stated before since the Orbit Shifter is a traditional folded horn & does gain in the lower frequencies from couplings. Once you start comparing multiples the gains from a one to one comparison disappears & the over all performance then starts to favour the Orbit Shifters more, then once you factor in the $$$ difference the Orbit Shifter shines even more.

I was just pretty much repeating exactly what you said a couple pages ago, that we are probably gonna see the 2 pretty close up higher and then the TH-118 will be a bit more efficient down lower. Again those are just ballpark numbers so one can kinda see what is going on. Yes as you cluster OS they will gain a bit down low. (Not a crazy amount though, remember the LABsub measurements we had in single, pair, and quad. From single to quad it was about 2dB it gained down lower from what one would have expected to see)

But again, if the OS response has changed a great amount from 2010 to 2011, we would definitely need to see it to understand what is going on.

I personally would be much quicker to buy the OS over the TH-118, as the price of the TH-118 brings its value down a touch. As I mentioned earlier, the tapped horns are designed to go as low as possible in the smallest size, while combining the efficiency and lower distortion perks that a horn design brings. (The OS is about 30% larger than the TH-118, i.e. 4 TH-118 would almost be the same size a 3 OS)

(Although in my opinion, if I was looking that direction a stack of 4 SRX728's would probably be my best value option.)

If I had the money for the TH-118, I would definitely be going DBH-218, LABsub on steroids with a little extra pucnh and slightly better sounding, sign me up.


Take Care,
Phil

[rsn62]

Does anyone have the freq - db chart for the th115?
Maybe someone could explain where these would fall in comparison to the other subs mentioned (th118,jtr os)
and how much area/people could they cover?
The reason I ask is that I am considering 4 th115's as I already have 2 it4000's.

[Phil Lewandowski]

Does anyone have the freq - db chart for the th115?
Maybe someone could explain where these would fall in comparison to the other subs mentioned (th118,jtr os)
and how much area/people could they cover?
The reason I ask is that I am considering 4 th115's as I already have 2 it4000's.

Here is TH115 product page with link to spec sheet:
http://danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn.asp?MODEL=TH%20115

Here is a comparison between Danley subs:
http://danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn_comparisons.asp



-------

My suggestion is if you have a good amount of money to spend and want some top of the line subs, go Danley TH-118's. If you are going for value, pick up a couple JBL SRX728's.


Take Care,
Phil

[avguy]

At less then your minimum budget of $8,000 you can pick up four of these http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/orbit-shifter/ that will net you the same performance as a pair of the Danley DBH-218LC yet save you over $3,000 at the same time.
Oohh... a bigger Growler.
$3000 may not get you a good enough power amp.

[Incognito]

Oohh... a bigger Growler.
$3000 may not get you a good enough power amp.

It can & has, actually you could get two with change to spare for that price.





I took all 4 Orbit Shifters out for a test run on my QSC PLX 3602. At full power the managers of the venue told me that neighbors across the street 3 stories up were complaining about the bass I only tickled the -10 indicators. Even outside as I sat in my van, I could feel them.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc62/djbman/Facebook/JTR%20Speakers%20invades%20the%20Super%20Jam%202%2 0Party/464686_10150591299725163_513370162_9262132_9560256 99_o.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc62/djbman/Facebook/JTR%20Speakers%20invades%20the%20Super%20Jam%202%2 0Party/464686_10150591299750163_513370162_9262134_1041927 135_o.jpg


Or you could also get a QSC PL380 for less then $3,000 which is a touring grade amp & one of the best options commonly available for sub duty.

[jayhwk]

What do the big sound companies in your area use?

[GaFFLe]

This dude's selling his entire JTR setup: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,137255.0.html

Triple 12x's and 8x's + the Growlers and rarely used.

[Incognito]

This dude's selling his entire JTR setup: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,137255.0.html

Triple 12x's and 8x's + the Growlers and rarely used.

Yep, I had my eyes on the Triple 12x tops but funds are still not flowing the way I would like at the moment. http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/JTR-Speakers-for-Sale-5782432

[DJ Higgumz]

Why don't you build 8 brand new Tuba60's? You will fill the 20,000sqft room with a thick bass.

+1 for the money I could build you a ton if you aren't the diy type, but just 4 at 400 watts each destroy a area with 2000 people. you would run practically a quarter of the amps you would with passive radiators. i was doubtful of bfm until i built and heard them! after I heard the sound of bfm i will never go back to 18 passive radiators again! heres the t60 (http://billfitzmaurice.com/T60.html)

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote] if you have greater woodworking skills, another horn loaded design for DIY'ers is the LAB subwoofer. T60 beats the Lab, and is much easier and less expensive to build.



Keeping in mind that tapped horns don't benefit from frequency extension from coupling According to whom? Totally untrue.

[Incognito]

According to whom? Totally untrue.

According to post #64 in this thread


Most of the Danley subs are what they refer to as a "tapped Horn" design. They will couple for added spl but it does not lower the frequency response below what a single cab will produce.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

According to post #64 in this threadStill totally untrue. Tapped horns are no different from any other horn in this respect.

[rsn62]

Here is TH115 product page with link to spec sheet:
http://danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn.asp?MODEL=TH%20115

Here is a comparison between Danley subs:
http://danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn_comparisons.asp



-------

My suggestion is if you have a good amount of money to spend and want some top of the line subs, go Danley TH-118's. If you are going for value, pick up a couple JBL SRX728's.


Take Care,
Phil


phil, how do you feel about the th115 specifically? I already own 2 itech4000's so I would assume that these are a good match. I dont think that I could push a th118 or srx728 with an it4000.

[Incognito]

Still totally untrue. Tapped horns are no different from any other horn in this respect.

As I had thought prior to that post


Interesting, I didn't know this about tapped horns. I thought they benefited from both increased SPL as well as frequency extension as normal horns (such as the JTR offerings) did from coupling.

but seeing as I had never looked too deep into the tapped horn design I figured he knew something on it that I didn't, guess not.

[jayhwk]

phil, how do you feel about the th115 specifically? I already own 2 itech4000's so I would assume that these are a good match. I don't think that I could push a th118 or srx728 with an it4000.

A speaker doesn't need to be "pushed" - it doesn't have to overcome a certain amount of wattage to start working. The sensitivity of the Th118 is 2dB higher than the sensitivity of the Th115, so the Th118 will be louder with your iTech 4000 than the Th115 will be. You may not be able to use the sub to it's full capacity with only an iTech4000, but to say that it won't get loud is incorrect.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

As I had thought prior to that post



but seeing as I had never looked too deep into the tapped horn design I figured he knew something on it that I didn't, guess not.You don't have to look all that deep, it's a variation on the classic rear-loaded folded horn. In other words, a scoop, though far better engineered than a scoop.

[Phil Lewandowski]

Still totally untrue. Tapped horns are no different from any other horn in this respect.

Hi Bill,

Do you have any reference material for this?

It has been talked almost to death by several big designers in the industry (one including Tom Danley himself) that the tapped horn exhibits next to no increase in LF corner when used in multiples.




For a port or horn, the acoustic length includes some air in front of the outlet, sort of a mouth bubble.
If I remember for a round duct, it is some portion like 2/3 of the duct radius.
In any case, with a horn with a large mouth, when you step from one to four, one has made the mouth bubble significantly larger and so, made the horn significantly longer.
With a Tapped horn, the mouths are small and while the mouth bubble effect is present, going from one to four units has a small effect on the length.
A further issue is that if you “add” on to the length of the front part of the horn, you are altering the drivers location in the system which may or may not mistune the system.



Take Care,
Phil

[Phil Lewandowski]

phil, how do you feel about the th115 specifically? I already own 2 itech4000's so I would assume that these are a good match. I dont think that I could push a th118 or srx728 with an it4000.

As jayhwk mentioned, all that will happen when using a smaller amp then a speaker is rated for is you may not be able to use it to its fullest potential. This can be just fine if you don't need all the output.

In the case of the TH-118 or TH-115, the TH-118 is a couple dB more efficient and even has a lower LF corner than the TH-115. So with the same power, the TH-118 theoretically will get louder (As long as the driver in the TH-118 has similar power compression characteristics to the driver in the TH-115).

Same goes for when thinking about the SRX728. The TH-118 and TH-115 will be more efficient than the SRX728's, but of course cost at least 4x the price. So if you get 4 SRX728, compared to a single TH-118/115, you have already made up 12dB in output comparing 1 sub to 4. Of course you have to figure in amp costs and such. Of course the Danley stuff is higher end gear, so that's where you have to weigh all the pros and cons, and why I always list the SRX718/SRX728 as great value sub options.


~Phil


PS - You should be able to get good output with an IT4000 with whichever sub you would choose. 2000 WPC will move a good amount of air.

[GaFFLe]

Same goes for when thinking about the SRX728. The TH-118 and TH-115 will be more efficient than the SRX728's, but of course cost at least 4x the price...

...Of course the Danley stuff is higher end gear, so that's where you have to weigh all the pros and cons, and why I always list the SRX718/SRX728 as great value sub options.


~Phil



3x the price... not any more ;-)

My Danley reseller worked out a great deal with me...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5454/6930825608_40b3ff0ecc_z.jpg

[rsn62]

This is one reason why I have been considering the th115 because it is less than 2x the price of the 728.

GaFFLe, how did feel about the th115 when you demo'd them next to the th118? I understand that the 18 will go louder and lower, what amps were being used for both?

[GaFFLe]

yes and this is why I have been considering the th115 because it is less than 2x the price of the 728.

GaFFLe, how did feel about the th115 when you demo'd them next to the th118? what amps where being used for both?
The TH-115 is a great sub. When the TH-118 1st came out, I went to demo it against a TH-115. I think they had some Danley (re-badged Crest) amplifier driving the subs. They played test tones through the TH-115 1st. They chose several particular frequencies and took the TH-115 to its max (where it began to flub), then switched over to the TH-118 without modifying the volume. No more flub + they were able to turn the volume up louder and the sub got louder. They did this back-n-forth test all the way down to the lowest frequencies. Of course, the TH-118 was giving huge output still down to the low 30Hz range whereas the TH-115 fell way off that far down low.

The TH-118's simply play a good bit louder and go lower than the TH-115. You'll find that the TH-115, with its single 15" driver, is still louder, lower and more musical than a lot of double 18" subs out there. Choosing Danley, you can't go wrong. That guy is an innovative genius when it comes to acoustics and speaker design.

PS: The TH-115 isn't necessarily 2x the cost of the SRX728. You just have to deal with the right Danley dealers. :)

[rsn62]

at what hz did the 115 start to fall off?

[GaFFLe]

at what hz did the 115 start to fall off?
The specs say they are +-3dB at 38Hz, so it may have been in the low 40's and 30Hz range area where the difference was noticeable. I don't recall the specifics, I was just amazed at the difference the 18" made in power handling and loudness.

[Phil Lewandowski]

This is one reason why I have been considering the th115 because it is less than 2x the price of the 728.





3x the price... not any more ;-)



Wow, is it really? It has come down in price then since I was checking them out, although I guess that was 3-4 years ago.



Phil

[Phil Lewandowski]

This is one reason why I have been considering the th115 because it is less than 2x the price of the 728.

GaFFLe, how did feel about the th115 when you demo'd them next to the th118? I understand that the 18 will go louder and lower, what amps were being used for both?

It's looking like you should be able to get the TH-118 for about the price of 2 SRX728, and running some numbers that I measured the output shouldn't be too far off from each other, the 2 SRX728 may just have a touch extra as you are spreading this power out over 4 18" instead of 1, but it shouldn't to much unless the driver in the TH-118 experiences a decent amount of power compression. In that case it may be best to just start off with a single TH-118, and then just add on another when you get the money.

Although, it would be very interesting to compare a single TH-118 to 2 SRX728.


~Phil

[audiopyle]

If anyone needs a good price quoted on Danley, email or pm me. Include your zip code.

mike@audiopyle.com